Clinching Argument

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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Stu
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Clinching Argument

Post by Stu »

I have noticed we often encounter the argument against males wearing skirt that goes like this:
Men shouldn't wear skirts because skirts are female garments and males should only wear male garments - otherwise they are .... (whatever)
This is, of course, a circular argument based on the thinking:
males don't wear skirts because males don't wear skirts
So, we can then challenge the basic premise of WHY don't males wear skirts and the only answer that emerges is basically that it defies tradition - in our modern western culture. Or, in other words, skirts are unfashionable for men - so unfashionable that wearing them is seen as the wearer associating himself with a member of the group that do routinely wear them - females.

I successfully challenged this idea on an online debate recently. My interlocutor came out with the circular argument I described - males don't wear skirts because they don't. "OK", I said, "You like drinking beer, right" Yes. Suppose it became so unfashionable for males to drink beer, that the beverage became regarded as a female-only beverage and, as such, consuming it was seen as an expression of femininity. Would you (a) conform and cease drinking beer? Or (b) challenge the taboo and drink what you like - i.e. beer? That seemed to be a clinching argument that stumped him.

Does anyone have any similar arguments to share?
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Faldaguy »

Not bad, but you better get 'em before they reach the bar and group think takes over! :)
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Bodycon
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Bodycon »

Stu wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:09 pm
That seemed to be a clinching argument that stumped him.
The issue with this being that the correlation will only work for those who have tried a beer and liked it, which isn't the case for most men and skirts.

The idea of losing something is a good argument, but only to those who have lost.

Maybe along the lines of.....

So you were in a record shop and discovered a great album and bought it; great songs with strong lyrics that resonated with you. When you got home and played it to friends they told you that it was an album by a woman, and was recorded for women and not meant for men. You like the album a lot, so would you continue to play it knowing the back story? Would you conform and only play it in private or would you play it in public as music should be for everyone?

The album would probably be "Yes I am" by Melissa Etheridge or something similar....(though of course meant for all)
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denimini
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by denimini »

"Men don't wear skirts"
"That is true, in all my travels I have never seen another male wearing a skirt. I don't know why as they are great to wear."
There could be any number of responses but there is always a follow up.
"I suppose I am lucky .......... I don't feel the need to prove that I am a man."
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
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Stu
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Stu »

Bodycon wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:48 am
The issue with this being that the correlation will only work for those who have tried a beer and liked it, which isn't the case for most men and skirts.
Now that's got me scratching my head.

First, I am putting the argument to someone who likes beer - I would have no idea whether he likes skirts.

Second, are you saying most men who wear skirts don't like beer? If so, and I apologise if I have misunderstood you, I would find that a bizarre assumption. I would wager most of the gents on here like beer. In fact, I am struggling to think of a man I have ever known who doesn't like beer. Even most women I know like a beer.

Maybe I have misread you. :wink:
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Bodycon
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Bodycon »

Stu wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:44 pm
Bodycon wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:48 am
The issue with this being that the correlation will only work for those who have tried a beer and liked it, which isn't the case for most men and skirts.
Now that's got me scratching my head.

First, I am putting the argument to someone who likes beer - I would have no idea whether he likes skirts.

Second, are you saying most men who wear skirts don't like beer? If so, and I apologise if I have misunderstood you, I would find that a bizarre assumption. I would wager most of the gents on here like beer. In fact, I am struggling to think of a man I have ever known who doesn't like beer. Even most women I know like a beer.

Maybe I have misread you. :wink:
Ah, the vagaries of the English language and interpretation, where one person writes something that makes perfect sense to them and the meaning is lost....

".....which isn't the case for most men and skirts" - read as most men will have tried a beer and liked it, but most men will not have tried a skirt.

You are basing your argument to the beer drinker on having something taken away (the beer), but really (I think) the argument should be based on trying something and discovering that you like it regardless of gender connotations. So using the beer analogy, you like Bitter, but taste Wheat Beer for the first time and love the taste, but it's a female drink...what do you do?

comprenez vous?
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Fred in Skirts
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Fred in Skirts »

Just kick A$$ and drink the beer anyway!! :lol:
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by crfriend »

Fred in Skirts wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:29 pm
Just kick A$$ and drink the beer anyway!! :lol:
AND wear the skirt whilst doing so!
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by moonshadow »

denimini wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:07 pm
"Men don't wear skirts"
egypt_warrior.jpg
Yeah-huh! :mrgreen:
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mishawakaskirt
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by mishawakaskirt »

Apparently you have to be a gladiator to wear a skirt.
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Avoid the middle man, wear a kilt or skirt.
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Pdxfashionpioneer
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

I have noticed we often encounter the argument against males wearing skirt that goes like this:
Men shouldn't wear skirts because skirts are female garments and males should only wear male garments - otherwise they are .... (whatever)


Or you could hang out with a more open-minded group of people because I rarely run into people who argue with me about my choice in clothing and no I do not socialize exclusively with liberals and progressives.

We have our share of conservatives in the Miata Club but apparently it's obvious to them that my dresses are as natural to me as their slacks are to them. Now when it comes to which generation of the Miata is the best ... that's an entirely different matter!
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Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
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moonshadow
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by moonshadow »

mishawakaskirt wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:32 am
Apparently you have to be a gladiator to wear a skirt.
Says who?
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Sinned
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Sinned »

I know one or two men who don't like beer. I know a few men who don't drink alcohol at all.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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mishawakaskirt
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by mishawakaskirt »

Sinned wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:29 pm
I know one or two men who don't like beer. I know a few men who don't drink alcohol at all.
Make me 3. While I have tried a beer or two ( the flavored kind, ( black cherry, apple, raspberry) to name a few. Them and other alcoholic drinks don't really have any attraction.
More recently due to health concerns, I have almost completely quit drinking soda, pop, cola, what ever you call it.

I still drink coffee, tea and water. At minimum I attempt to drink at least 80 oz of water daily.
I had eliminated coffee for a while and and then pumpkin spice season hit and I have had a relapse.
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Avoid the middle man, wear a kilt or skirt.
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by STEVIE »

What the gladiator wore was not a skirt in any sense that would be recognised today.
The closest term is probably "Kilt" as it would have been a garment exclusively for males.
In history the divisions of clothing ran a lot further than mere gender and the consequences for crossing over severe.
On drinks, my Dad drank whisky and beer while Mum would have had sherry or a soft drink.
Dad would have no more chose to wear a dress than he would have ordered a sherry for himself in the local.
I rather doubt that many of his peers would have either. What they may have done in private, I have no idea.
The argument could go;
You are only going to be able to obtain whisky or beer in the pub if you wear a skirt or dress while so doing.
Otherwise only cordial or sweet sherry for you.
NB The Kilt does not qualify.
I honestly have no idea how he might have responded but I wouldn't have expected anything polite.
Before I quit, I certainly quaffed my share in various hostelries and the skirts were never an issue.
I certainly miss the taste and texture of the Black Nectar from the Emerald Isle but I won't harp on about that.
Steve.
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