Sexual Fetish or Gender Expression?

[Stevej180]

I mostly wear skirts because I like them and feel good wearing them. There is no fetish in it for me. However, there is something that bothers me. I hope the moderators will give me a little leeway here. The first time I ever tried on pantyhose, I got sexually aroused. I don't know why this happened and I was very confused.

I think this was the gist of my original point. There was a time for me when wearing tights (pantyhose) and a skirt was something that only happened in the bedroom with my wife because I was very closeted about it, and it usually led on to other things. So I naturally assumed they were related. It was an epiphany for me to realise that I was conflating two things. By bringing my skirt-wearing out of the bedroom (closet) into everyday wear I broke the link. The old phrase 'correlation is not causation' comes to mind...

At which point I felt happy to venture outside skirted, comfortable in the knowledge that it was in no way a sexual thing for me. I acknowledge and accept those who say the thread title is a false dichotomy, although for me it did feel like an 'either/or', and I have concluded that my skirting is indeed a expression of my somewhat hybrid gender identity.

[Faldaguy]

by Stevej180 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:54 am

and I have concluded that my skirting is indeed a expression of my somewhat hybrid gender identity.

"Hybrid gender identity" -- I like that phrase, it helps emphasize that gender identity is not unmalleable yet states what is probably the greater reality--all of us have something of the 'other' in us. Maybe I'm playing sloppy with the PC and what the so-called experts declare as precise meanings for said terms, but it has a nice ring to it!

I think Dennis nails it when he speaks of the "first time for anything" having the capability of producing heightened and unfamiliar feelings that we are a bit in awe of and then familiarity comes along to dampens the poignancy!

Personally I do not relate closely to either category of the thread title, and I've not joined in in part due to my distain for "either or" choices as they seldom reflect the spectrum of choices that our discussions in SC so clearly point out is very wide indeed. I enjoy my skirts on many levels, and get frustrated with them once in a while too! Their roles in my life are many things, but neither 'sexual fetish' nor 'gender expression' is an accurate descriptor.

[Stu]

For me, this is about choice and comfort - it is a men's rights issue!

[Faldaguy]

by Stu » Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:04 am

For me, this is about choice and comfort - it is a men's rights issue!

I mostly concur. Comfort yes. Choice yes. But I'm not sure that adds up to a "men's rights" issue in that there really is no barrier except our own conformity regimented by our own perceptions of what someone else might think -- there is no law compelling nor stopping us from electing what fashion freedom we want save lack of cajones.

[Stu]

there is no law compelling nor stopping us from electing what fashion freedom we want save lack of cajones.

True, there is no law - but there doesn't need to be a law. All they need to do is:

1. Apply intense social pressure to make skirt-wearing by males a taboo, and they achieve that by conflating it with femininity, or transsexualism etc. The media supports this line. Males who do wear them are either ostracised or presented as oddballs.

2. Lack of availability. Mainstream suppliers stock zero male skirts. They do not market them for men or boys or depict men or boys wearing them. Males generally then have to source them from women's suppliers, effectively forcing them to cross-dress and then we are back to Problem 1.

Who needs a law?

[crfriend]

To Stu's point, there is no prison so effective and terrifying than the ones we create for ourselves in our minds. Couple that with a society that is complicit in creating those prisons, then it does take on a men's rights flavour because it creates a distinctly unequal world for men and women. Why should only one sex have exclusive access to an item, object, or idea? Is that not profoundly wrong on the face of it? In this particular case, it's extremely misandric.

Women (in the societal sense) are not going to help us tear those walls down, nor is the mass media. Women like their status and are not going to relinquish one iota of it willingly, and the press sensationalises the most idiotic of things -- even when there are vastly more important problems to be addressed than what So-and-so wants to wear today.

[rode_kater]

True, there is no law - but there doesn't need to be a law. All they need to do is:

Who is "they" in this sentence?

What you seem to be describing is a form of systemic misandry: where individuals as a rule don't have a problem with men wearing skirts, but that society as a whole makes it a problem. As with racism, the reactions vary between "it's not a/my problem" to "we need to reform society". There's no silver bullet here. That said:

1. Apply intense social pressure to make skirt-wearing by males a taboo, and they achieve that by conflating it with femininity, or transsexualism etc. The media supports this line. Males who do wear them are either ostracised or presented as oddballs.

While I'm sure there exist people that do this, I don't believe they amount to any significant group. Most of what we see is, in my opinion, ignorance. Most people have just never thought about it. That's where we make the difference: my making it visible (and the press does this too) we make people think about it and most will conclude that they just don't care (as long as it's not their partner, of course).

(Though this probably varies a lot across the world).

2. Lack of availability. Mainstream suppliers stock zero male skirts. They do not market them for men or boys or depict men or boys wearing them. Males generally then have to source them from women's suppliers, effectively forcing them to cross-dress and then we are back to Problem 1.

Again, I think this is ignorance/just not thinking about it. Would they sell more skirts by marketing them to males? That's the only consideration for most stores. As for calling it cross-dressing, my response would be: they're not women's clothes, they're my clothes, I bought them. Whether men wearing skirts while not trying to look like women is actually cross-dressing is a debatable point.

I find it interesting to contrast this with make up/perfume. The acceptance for this has been growing for years, and now the ads to male/female perfumes are about 50% here. Although, possibly they don't call them perfumes any more, the ads have become so bizarre it's not clear what they're selling till the end.

Who needs a law?

To be honest, I think feminists had an easier job because there were laws against it. That makes it much easier to make it a political point.

But I do agree that there's a definite men's rights angle here, though hard to pin down.

[Midas]

We seem to fall into a gap.

There are those who refer to themselves as cross dressers, who mainly want to wear wigs and make to try and pass as a woman. Then there are trans women; the edges between these and cross dressers is a bit blurred sometimes. Also there are the non-binary types.

All the above now have some degree of acceptance and some have pressure groups pushing their cause.

Then there’s people like me. I don’t want to self-identify as a woman! I am just a man in a dress (or skirt). In other words I am me and I just happen to prefer to buy my clothes from the women’s department.

It is neither a sexual fetish nor an expression of gender.

[Coder]

Who needs a law?

To be honest, I think feminists had an easier job because there were laws against it. That makes it much easier to make it a political point.

Well then, maybe someone needs to introduce a bill into the US congress or UK parliament banning skirts for men (I kid I kid).

[STEVIE]

Personally I'd go with, just my dress sense and simple choice.
Does anyone else need to know any more than that?
Why does everyone think think that they have any right to even ask?
As for "no law against it", the hardest to break are the unwritten ones enforced by the people around us.
Steve.

[6ft3Aussie]

Sexual fetish - Nope. Not at all.
Gender expression - Again, not in the slightest.

I am a heterosexual bloke, happily married to an amazing, encouraging and accepting wife of 9 years.
It's all about being comfortable, and there's also a bit if just because I can and screw what anyone else thinks.
It's more comfortable especially on a hot summer evening, it's lighter and easier than heavy jeans and doesn't squash unmentionables.

The other evening I changed when I got home into a sarong that I folded to make it shorter, mid thigh, and my wife's face lit up, she liked it.
Sometimes I think she likes it more than me...

My 2c worth.

[pelmut]

Sexual fetish - Nope. Not at all.
[...] my wife's face lit up, she liked it.

Perhaps it's her sexual fetish, not yours.

On a more serious note, some people may wear a skirt as a sexual fetish, but that doesn't mean everyone does.  The same applies to:
Gender expression
Fashion statement
Parody
Comfort
Convenience
Transgender
To demonstrate solidarity with a cause
Exhibitionism
Experiment

...and dozens of other reasons which might or might not apply.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

True, there is no law - but there doesn't need to be a law. All they need to do is:

1. Apply intense social pressure to make skirt-wearing by males a taboo, and they achieve that by conflating it with femininity, or transsexualism etc. The media supports this line. Males who do wear them are either ostracised or presented as oddballs.

2. Lack of availability. Mainstream suppliers stock zero male skirts. They do not market them for men or boys or depict men or boys wearing them. Males generally then have to source them from women's suppliers, effectively forcing them to cross-dress and then we are back to Problem 1.

Who needs a law?

Again, who is "they?"

"ostracized ... oddballs" for crying out loud, Vogue not only gave Harry Styles a full spread, they put him on the front cover! If people dismiss him as an oddball it sure hasn't hurt his social life. The women in his life are unfailingly beautiful and accomplished in their own right. If that's what comes of being viewed an oddball, bring it on! Please!!!

Yes, skirts and dresses are associated with femininity, but you said it yourself, in this or another thread; everyone's personality is a blend of so-called masculine and feminine traits. So, a man expressing his feminine side by wearing a skirt or dress doesn't diminish his masculinity, nor make him less of a man; in a way, it makes him more of a man because he knows who he is and displays that confidently.

What "intense social pressure?" I don't get any, unless you count 1, count it 1, bit of flashback per year.

What "Lack of availability?" Are you kidding me? The stores have several times more skirts and dresses than pants! Soi what if you have to go to the women's department? No one cares! The sales associates sure don't; to a person they have been as eager to help me as anyone else. Step into a dress shop and the social pressure will be for you to try on a dress or skirt. If not several!

So, what's the "men's rights" issue here?! I'm not seeing it.

Just this afternoon I had an interview via Microsoft Team and there I was in my bright blue Halston A-line dress and Evan Picone jacket and if anything, that gave me an advantage over my unseen, unknown competition for the position, because the Human Resources manager I was meeting with said that they look for a candidate's quirkiness and mine was on full display!

[Stu]

Again, who is "they?"

Those who seek to control us - and would have us believe males should not wear skirts.

Vogue not only gave Harry Styles a full spread, they put him on the front cover!

Yes, but that is a celebrity and he is being photographed for Vogue. His job is to get noticed and Vogue's job is to notice him. You can not begin to compare him to Mr Average going to work at the office or walking into a local bar.

So, a man expressing his feminine side by wearing a skirt or dress doesn't diminish his masculinity,

Wow! That is a pure oxymoron. Masculinity and femininity are polar opposites. The existence of each depends on the differential - i.e. the fact it has an opposite. Without that differential, there is no point in either masculinity or femininity. If you claim a man can still be masculine while wearing a dress (which I agree with!), then that is a masculine act in that particular context and not a feminine one. We can discuss what behaviours constitute masculinity and femininity - and which are both/neither (like, in my view, wearing a skirt), and we can even agree that there may be instances in which otherwise masculine men suspend their masculinity for some reason, but that doesn't take away from the fact that masculinity and femininity are opposites.

What "intense social pressure?"

The social pressure which has made this website necessary for the past two decades. Where is the "skirtcafe.org" for females? There isn't one because women and girls can wear skirts when and where they like without anyone batting an eyelid. Males can't. If you can where you happen to live, then count yourself lucky

What "Lack of availability?" Are you kidding me? The stores have several times more skirts and dresses than pants!

OK. I live in the UK. Show me any of the main clothing websites (Marks and Spencer, Primark, Next, etc) where they offer skirts or dresses for men and boys. We have just had all this excitement because the US supplier Nordstrom's has on offer a couple of garments which it is marketing as "gender inclusive". Let's be honest - the vast majority of skirts and dresses the men here are wearing were designed for women and marketed as women's garments. That is close to forcing men to effectively "cross dress". I have no issue with that for men who see skirts and dresses as feminine garments - but I am talking about men and boys who want to de-feminise these items and NOT express femininity.

So, what's the "men's rights" issue here?! I'm not seeing it.

There are several - including the fact that many men on here report how their female partners, all of whom routinely wear trousers no doubt, object to varying degrees that the men in their lives are wearing garments which they see as the soul preserve of their own sex. Even those who "permit" their men to do this often don't like it one bit and try to impose limits on when, where and what their male partner can wear. That is a men's rights issue. Another might be schools, where they proudly announce that, to respect trans rights, both sexes can choose either trousers of skirts. In other words, they are saying that they regard skirts and dresses as only for females - and boys with gender issues - because these garments are feminine garments only. That. too, is a men's rights issue.

[Sinned]

"There are several - including the fact that many men on here report how their female partners, all of whom routinely wear trousers no doubt, object to varying degrees that the men in their lives are wearing garments which they see as the soul preserve of their own sex. Even those who "permit" their men to do this often don't like it one bit and try to impose limits on when, where and what their male partner can wear. That is a men's rights issue."

Stu is right on this one. As an affected man it sometimes really hurts that the one person who should be there for me and support me in my reasonable desires to the hilt, just cannot bring herself to do so. What she is afraid of, I don't know especially since a great number around us, and most of our neighbours, have seen me out in a skirt?