Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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Mark as in Mark
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Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by Mark as in Mark »

As some of you may know, some pictures of mine on the 30th of Sept on Facebook has gone not quite viral, but its gaining views daily at what I think is a astonishing rate.

My Instagram followers have almost doubled in that time and my followers on Pinterest has increase as well.

Yesterday I posted a picture of me at work in Instagram. I had a lady comment that I was a hero to her. I replied that hero status was a bit far fetched. Here was her reply...

"Women get so much **** because of the way we dress. I think the reason so many of us appreciate a man in heels and a skirt is because we recognize that once clothes are genderless, we won't be targeted as much for dressing "too slutty". There can't be an argument that "she was asking for it" in a world where everyday men are dressing the same way. So for this reason, I'd call you a hero too. You're normalizing something trans women get killed for, and cis women get raped for. So thank you for being you"


So my question is, are we men responsible for women to stop wearing skirts and heels because of the uneasiness and all the sexual risks they took when wearing skirt and heels?
I was told I have balls for wearing skirts! My reply? "That's because balls this big won't fit in pants!"

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Stu
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by Stu »

I don't do identity politics, so I don't buy into the guilt by association notion that men as a collective are responsible for the attitudes and actions of all men. Why do some men wear skirts? I can only speak for myself. Most of the time I prefer trousers as they are way more practical and they are generally warmer in colder climes. However, a skirt option is great as they are looser and better ventilated, and they make a refreshing change of feel and aesthetics from the usual attire of trousers/jeans, so they should absolutely have a place in the male wardrobe. I stress "male" rather than just "men's" as I believe boys, from toddlers to teens, should enjoy the same choices as their sisters.

I have no interest in clothing items, footwear, accessories or cosmetics which are specifically aimed at enhancing feminity, so high heels will never be something I would consider.
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Fred in Skirts
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by Fred in Skirts »

My thoughts on this is no we did not.

Women started to wear pants in the late 30's and early 40's. Also the war (WWII) did a lot to put women in skirts as they started to work in factories where a skirt would be dangerous. After the war the trend for women to wear pants continued and grew.
Fred :kiltdance:

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Uncle Al
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by Uncle Al »

Hey Fred ;)

WW-II did a lot to put women in "PANTS" and get them out of skirts.
Factory work was to dangerous for a skirt. Too easy to get caught
in the machinery. Kate Hepburn helped to 'lead the way' for women
by wearing pants when she wasn't filming a picture.

Great Typo ;) :hide:

Uncle Al
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Dust
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by Dust »

I have to agree with all that Stu said, aside from the idea that heels are inherently feminine. Heels were originally a male item, and I believe we can restore that, and at least make them unisex.

But (as Stu points out) the guilt placed on men is excessive, and no one should have any sort of guilt placed on them solely for being male (or female, or a certain ethnicity, etc). It seems to me that men are often seen as guilty until proven innocent, while women are innocent until proven guilty. The idea that women were "asking for it" seems fairly well debunked and women are assumed to have a certain level of innocence and virtue. Meanwhile, men are presumed to be (at least potentially) rapists and monsters simply for being male. A man is burdened with proving himself to be one of the few "good guys." Women on the other hand, are presumed good, and when one does something horrible, convincing people of the fact of what she has done, and its seriousness is exceedingly difficult. We need to assess each individual without prejudice, sex based or otherwise.

That said, I also agree with Mark's commenter, that men wearing skirts and heels as normal attire is great for everyone! More options for men, and more understanding for women. Make such things less sexually charged. Great!

I do not, however, think that men are responsible for a decrease in such things being worn by women. Women have simply discovered the ease of wearing pants, and meanwhile society has become much more casual. Jeans became ubiquitous. For women, skirts are not significantly more comfortable the way they are for men, anatomically. Heels have always been somewhat impractical for walking, and take extra effort and practice. Women are responsible for their own decisions to wear or not wear skirts and heels, no one else.
Faldaguy
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by Faldaguy »

Mark as in Mark » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:28 am

So my question is, are we men responsible for women to stop wearing skirts and heels because of the uneasiness and all the sexual risks they took when wearing skirt and heels?
No, & I don't think the incidence of "asking for it" has changed especially by women wearing pants either.

However, another perspective that has been covered before: Society helped move women to pants because pants were seen as a symbol of "power" and was emulated by women seeking power or equality in recognition.
Dust
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by Dust »

Faldaguy wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:45 pm
However, another perspective that has been covered before: Society helped move women to pants because pants were seen as a symbol of "power" and was emulated by women seeking power or equality in recognition.
Women already had "power," it was just of a different sort than men had. Feminism had to work very hard to convince them otherwise. It was long known that "they who rock the cradle rule the world." Women had always had enormous power, but still became envious of the very different sort of power held by men...
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JeffB1959
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by JeffB1959 »

I don't think so. Women have chosen to wear pants when and where they could for nearly a century now, and the choice was purely left up to them and not the end result of any influence, covert or overt from men. That's just my two cents worth.
I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman.
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denimini
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by denimini »

Uncle Al wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:51 pm
Hey Fred ;)

WW-II did a lot to put women in "PANTS" and get them out of skirts.
Factory work was to dangerous for a skirt. Too easy to get caught
in the machinery. Kate Hepburn helped to 'lead the way' for women
by wearing pants when she wasn't filming a picture.

Great Typo ;) :hide:

Uncle Al
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It is such a pleasure to be able to fully agree with Uncle Al.
From my reading I think these events were the main impetus for women to start wearing pants.

I think that the vulnerability factor came later, for a small percentage, and was an easy choice as pants were already acceptable by then.
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
trainspotter48
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by trainspotter48 »

The advent of the 'safety bicycle' as opposed to the 'Ordinary' or 'Penny farthing' did much to encourage women to become cyclists. From there on the adoption of some form of bifurcated lower body covering was seen as prudent - the advent of the 'bloomer', named after one Amelia Bloomer.
However, it was the relatively widespread employment of women in factories and similar occupations that hastened the female adoption of trousers for the reasons already discussed.

Regrettably, there have always been the men who behave more like the farmyard bull, right back to the master tumbling the maid. Today's ultra macho attitude among men is doing little to allay womens' fears.
Grok
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by Grok »

Awhile back a member stated that feminine clothing-except for a few business suits-are designed to show off a woman's sexuality

Unless you happen to want to show off your sexuality, what are the alternatives?
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denimini
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by denimini »

Grok wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:35 pm
Awhile back a member stated that feminine clothing-except for a few business suits-are designed to show off a woman's sexuality

Unless you happen to want to show off your sexuality, what are the alternatives?
I am not sure if any clothing can show off a persons sexuality unless something is written on it to that effect.
Just wear what you like and people can misinterpret to their heart's content.
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
partlyscot
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by partlyscot »

Interesting response from your "hero worshipper" it's a way of looking at it that I haven't considered. I accept that she has a reason to think that way, though I don't believe genderless clothes will do much to alleviate it.

No, I don't think men forced women to wear pants, though in some places there has been growing pressure to not dress for themselves. I know that Carl is not keen on leggings, but I am, perhaps because I have mostly been around much younger, and mostly very active and fit ladies, such women are extremely good looking to me in well fitting leggings, more so than a skirt to be honest. A lot more women would wear clothes to make themselves look good, if they didn't get reactions that make them uncomfortable. One thing that my skirt wearing has done for me is to make me much more likely to compliment a woman on her clothing. In reality, I'm saying to her, "I find you attractive" but not with a catcall or crude comments about her body. Something like, "You are really rocking those leggings!" Thinking about it, it's because I haven't had a woman try to lift my hem or say something crude. The most direct comment was "Well, you certainly have the legs for a skirt!" and even that was good to hear, so I felt more confident to do the same.

A lot of men do not comprehend how often a woman hears such crude comments, and how that continuous exposure, even at a low level, can generate a sense of fear.
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SkirtsDad
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by SkirtsDad »

denimini wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:03 am
Grok wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:35 pm
Awhile back a member stated that feminine clothing-except for a few business suits-are designed to show off a woman's sexuality

Unless you happen to want to show off your sexuality, what are the alternatives?
I am not sure if any clothing can show off a persons sexuality unless something is written on it to that effect.
Just wear what you like and people can misinterpret to their heart's content.
What happens when someone misinterprets wearing of a miniskirt as "asking for it"?

In 2011he governor of Jakarta gave this response about a woman that had been raped and murdered on public transport: "Imagine if someone sits on board a [minivan] wearing a miniskirt; you would get a bit turned on."

Clothes are still being blames for sexual attacks, and not always by men.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/3 ... y-suggests

A couple of years ago a man stopped to talk to me about the skirt I was wearing. As we parted he said "be careful you don't get raped".

Why is it not a wonder that many women prefer trousers? In answer, then for some, yes, I believe that men have "forced" women to wear trousers.

If you do see a woman in a skirt, she may not have a choice, as in some workplaces women are still forced to wear skirts if they want a job there. Worse still is that in the US it could be set to get worse: https://www.teenvogue.com/story/trump-t ... rotections
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denimini
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Re: Did we (men) force women to wear pants?

Post by denimini »

SkirtsDad wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:41 pm
What happens when someone misinterprets wearing of a miniskirt as "asking for it"?
I would just punch their lights out :)

I agree that it could be intimidating for some women in some places and probably why they have gone to pants.
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
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