Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
Stu
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by Stu »

moonshadow wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:31 pm
Tour America's "flyover" country and ask for opinions about men wearing skirts and see what they say....

You're half correct... women do share in the blame... but men ain't no peaches either. They're all hypocrites.
My guess is they will say men look ridiculous in skirts - but not that they are "inferior". But the entire world is not the same as "America's flyover country".

And if women share the blame, then that just confirms my point that the issue isn't "toxic masculinity" - it is public narrow-mindedness, lack of imagination and inability to rationalise.
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by Dust »

The idea of "toxic masculinity" is awful. While I get that it isn't calling all things masculine toxic, it implies that some significant part of what is unique to men is in fact toxic. And that implication is a problem, not just for men's skirt wearing, but because it perpetuates the negative overall attitude that society has towards men.

Bad behavior has no gender. It may manifest in slightly different ways in men vs. women, but both sexes are capable and even guilty of it in relatively equal measure.
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by Dust »

The idea that women or feminine things are inferior is a figment of the feminist academy's collective imagination. They need to get over themselves, realize we all have different strengths, and stop selling lies to the rest of us.
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by moonshadow »

Stu wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:10 pm
moonshadow wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:31 pm
Tour America's "flyover" country and ask for opinions about men wearing skirts and see what they say....

You're half correct... women do share in the blame... but men ain't no peaches either. They're all hypocrites.
My guess is they will say men look ridiculous in skirts - but not that they are "inferior". But the entire world is not the same as "America's flyover country".

And if women share the blame, then that just confirms my point that the issue isn't "toxic masculinity" - it is public narrow-mindedness, lack of imagination and inability to rationalise.
Well, to be fair, "inferior" is not a word I hear frequently around my locale.

There are lots of adjectives I hear locals use when describing "our kind", and I'll spare the moderation team the details as many are not exactly family friendly.

Suffice it to say, "inferior" is certainly implied, if not directly spoken.
Dust wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:22 pm
The idea of "toxic masculinity" is awful. While I get that it isn't calling all things masculine toxic, it implies that some significant part of what is unique to men is in fact toxic.
Human toxicity is on a scale. Everyone is at least a little bit toxic.

God knows I've done my share of things I'm not proud of.
-MS
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Jim
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by Jim »

Stu wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:17 pm
Nobody thinks men are "inferior" for wearing skirts
On any public discussion I've seen about men wearing skirts there are many responses saying, in many ways, men who wear skirts are not really proper men, are homosexuals, etc, all in ways that denote inferiority.
Dust wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:35 pm
The idea that women or feminine things are inferior is a figment of the feminist academy's collective imagination. They need to get over themselves, realize we all have different strengths, and stop selling lies to the rest of us.
The idea that women or feminine things are inferior is a common figment of men's as well as women's imagination. By wearing skirts, we men are denying that false assumption--except for those who do it as some sort of submission to a dominant woman. This board doesn't have that population.
Stu
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by Stu »

Jim wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:57 pm
On any public discussion I've seen about men wearing skirts there are many responses saying, in many ways, men who wear skirts are not really proper men, are homosexuals, etc, all in ways that denote inferiority.
Disapproving of some kind of behaviour or those who behave in certain ways does not equate to considering them to be innately inferior - unless one is quite literally a Nazi. Choosing to wear a skirt is not something innate - it is a choice.

The issue I had was applying the expression "toxic masculinity" in relation to the view held by people of both sexes that men should not wear skirts because this garment is exclusively for females because .... well, it all boils down to fashion. We need to be clear that is the only reason men in our culture are not expected to wear skirts is that it is deeply unfashionable. That view is held by both sexes and so attributing it to "toxic masculinity" is by definition irrational. The whole notion of toxic masculinity is simply a stick used by feminists to attack males and maleness. It is bigotry. Apply that to any other demographic and we would recognise it as such immediately and attack it. Imagine someone referring to mugging as "toxic blackness" - that would, rightly, be unthinkable - but somehow it's OK when applied to males.

I will happily call out anyone who uses that expression.
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by STEVIE »

Stu wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:03 pm
.... well, it all boils down to fashion.
Without getting into the "toxic" debate, I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment.
The nay sayers and detractors seem unable or unwilling to grasp this and place undue importance on a man wearing a skirt.
The problem is that this attitude is so ingrained in some people that it will never change.
Lets face it some of us can count our nearest and dearest in that category.
We will prevail but when, who knows?
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Jim
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by Jim »

Stu wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:03 pm

The issue I had was applying the expression "toxic masculinity" in relation to the view held by people of both sexes that men should not wear skirts because this garment is exclusively for females because .... well, it all boils down to fashion. We need to be clear that is the only reason men in our culture are not expected to wear skirts is that it is deeply unfashionable. That view is held by both sexes and so attributing it to "toxic masculinity" is by definition irrational.
Would it be more precise to say "a toxic understanding of masculinity"? I think a major reason that men wearing skirts is disliked by men and women is that skirts are seen as a feminine fashion, not masculine. A woman can wear "manly" clothes, but because "manliness" is more valued than femininity (to many) that's OK to many, while a man is seen as demeaning himself to take the role (in some people's minds) of a woman.

"Toxic masculinity" is not true masculinity, so I see no need to take offense. It's being rude, uncaring, selfish, unwilling to express tender emotions or weakness, and other characteristics that are not really part of being masculine. Machismo is similar in meaning but is not quite so clear that the behavior is considered unhealthy.
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by rode_kater »

Jim wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:18 pm
Would it be more precise to say "a toxic understanding of masculinity"? I think a major reason that men wearing skirts is disliked by men and women is that skirts are seen as a feminine fashion, not masculine.
I can follow you up to here.
Jim wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:18 pm
A woman can wear "manly" clothes, but because "manliness" is more valued than femininity (to many) that's OK to many, while a man is seen as demeaning himself to take the role (in some people's minds) of a woman.
And here you lose me. I see this explanation trotted out a lot, but I don't really buy it. There's (IMO) nothing "manly" at all about a woman in a suit, though it does look professional. Women started wearing traditional men's clothing for practical reasons and just fought to get rid of any laws in the way. And then subsequently created feminised versions.

Then again, it may be a generational thing. Men/women having fixed roles is idea that's been fading away for decades now. And this has undoubtedly happened in different ways in different countries.
Jim wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:18 pm
"Toxic masculinity" is not true masculinity, so I see no need to take offense. It's being rude, uncaring, selfish, unwilling to express tender emotions or weakness, and other characteristics that are not really part of being masculine.
I think the point was that this has nothing to do with men wearing skirts, so why did she bring it up? In my experience the biggest obstacle to MIS is the Significant Other, followed by the parents. In both cases, whatever toxic masculinity is, it's not relevant. Random people on the street rarely say anything, if they even notice.
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by moonshadow »

Y'all (Stu, rode-kater) may be right... I can't read minds after all.

I know my styles tend to generate some pretty ugly glares from lots of folks, men and women, but it's possible it may be more the style of skirt rather than the fact that I'm wearing a skirt.

I am, after all, fully aware that my style doesn't exactly square among "women's looks" either. I'm not insanely popular in any clique... just a lone wolf... :mrgreen:

I honestly don't know what the source is of the hostility, but it's there... sure enough.

But I like what I like, and if I am forced to wear a kilt, or some other skirt style I don't care for, then I might as well just wear pants. I've often told Jenn, my life decisions have been in spite of my social life. I've always been a loner, never fitting in anywhere, and I've got the empty driveway and sparse call history to prove it.

I'm not playing the world's smallest violin here, I'm perfectly fine with this. When I made the choice to start wearing skirts, I didn't have to win too many people over, or worry about being shunned from society... I've always been shunned anyway...

So this was easy as pie! :D

So this is why I don't worry about these petty labels. Call me a sissy fag, call me toxic, call me feminine, call me queer, call me sick, disgusting, call me whatever they want... I've been called ugly things my whole life... I am what I am, and I'm fine with that. I don't owe anyone anything.

So as for any assumption that I [as a man] am somehow "toxic"... meh... maybe I am. I dunno... doesn't matter. I know what I am... I know the sins I've committed.
-MS
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We all have the tendency to make simple things difficult, but the spirit that abides within us achieves its own ends by making all difficult things simple.
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by STEVIE »

moonshadow wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:15 pm
But I like what I like, and if I am forced to wear a kilt, or some other skirt style I don't care for, then I might as well just wear pants.
Hi Moon
I know that our style choices are quite different but choice is the key here.
A choice of one is actually no choice at all.
I also had to get to a point of shrugging off the "labels" otherwise I doubt I'd be writing this now.
Any one of us at the cafe who has gone public and stayed public will have had to do to some degree or another.
As a Scot, I particularly liked the use of kilt as an example. It is one that has been thrown at me on several occasions.
As in, "would it not be easier just to wear a kilt"? Hell no, where is the fun in making life easier any way?
Nah, I will just be me thank you very much.
Regards to you and yours
Steve.
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by denimini »

moonshadow wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:15 pm
I am, after all, fully aware that my style doesn't exactly square among "women's looks" either. I'm not insanely popular in any clique... just a lone wolf.
That is being a true individual.
moonshadow wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:15 pm
I honestly don't know what the source is of the hostility, but it's there... sure enough.
I also wonder; perhaps resentment of someone who demonstrates the freedom that they dream of but are too weak to live it; perhaps bringing chaos to their ordered minds.
moonshadow wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:15 pm
I've often told Jenn, my life decisions have been in spite of my social life.

A man with integrity no doubt.
moonshadow wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:15 pm
I I know what I am... I know the sins I've committed.
That sounds healthy to me.
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
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Sinned
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by Sinned »

Don't worry, Moon, you're not the only one in the Loners Club. I am one with you. Although superficially having friends around through my life up to getting wed I never really felt "one with the crowd". I was always forcing myself to fit in to maintain that popularity, never really being myself. Maybe that was, in part, because I never really knew who I was and what the real "me" was. I'm happier now that I have worked out some of the answer but it's something of a continual, narrow path of discovery. I know that skirts are a part of me, something that my wife just can't [0] accept or understand. I'd love to be able to pop round, put my arm around you whenever you are feeling down, but the distance is too great. So accept a virtual hug from me. But then I have found that my mum says that she is happy with her own company too and is content with the lockdown situation. So I guess I take after her.

[0] I say "can't" rather than "won't" because I don't think that it's a conscious rejection but an honest and personal reaction and part of her. Any acceptance will only be as a result of an argument within herself. She has come a long way over the past few years and does not really have many more steps to take.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by eightofnine »

I think toxic masculinity is a big reason men don't wear skirts, it discourages men from anything not of the norm .When i was younger i went to a birthday party and a boy wanted a pink ice lolly we all discouraged him saying it pink is for girls and he would be a sissy girl etc .I remember thinking I want a pink ice lolly too but was too scared to ask because i didn't want to be left out by the other boys .I had a customer in work ask me for a something in blue because " I don't want my boy thinking he's a girl" that for me is toxic masculinity .It's not saying all masculinity is toxic just some aspects are .A lot of men today won't wear a skirt for fear of losing friends or family . I used to hide my skirt activities because of fear, its only through the cafe that changed my mind .
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Re: Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

Post by eightofnine »

Forgot to add I told my dad that in work i get confused with a woman sometimes and he said to me " probably because they saw you wearing a skirt"
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