How far we've come

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
User avatar
denimini
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2305
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:50 am
Location: Outback Australia

Re: How far we've come

Post by denimini »

Faldaguy wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:53 am
Anthony, I have considerable admiration for the wealth of knowledge this crowd holds, but you may need to explain your pun to some -- meantime I'm smiling. :cheese:
Sorrrrryyyy. New Zealand is often referred to as the land of the long white cloud (which is obviously a meteorological feature). Some original inhabitants have a different take on the phrase.
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
User avatar
Jim
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1094
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:39 am
Location: Northern Illinois, USA

Re: How far we've come

Post by Jim »

I've been at the family home in Maryland dealing with my Mom's estate since early November. I wore dress pants at the memorial service on November 6, as I didn't want any undue attention on me since the service focused on Mom.

I had also packed a pair of blue jeans but I've not worn pants since the memorial service. Back home in Illinois, I wear pants for a weekly peace vigil (look foolish enough standing on a street corner with signs). So this is the longest by far that I haven't worn pants. Well, I tried on a pair of Christmasy leggings for a minute but was unimpressed. I'm still doing all the everyday (during COVID season) things of walks in the park or suburban streets, grocery shopping, and hardware stores. I'll soon be starting to paint the interior of the house, preparing it for sale, so I'll have to pick a skirt that I'll sacrifice for painting jobs. Or maybe I'll just wear a long old teeshirt I found here like a dress.
Faldaguy
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:09 am
Location: Costa Rica

Re: How far we've come

Post by Faldaguy »

One more woman speaking out for us:

https://mikayladaniels.medium.com/why-i ... eaf2fb53e5

I've not idea who she is save the bio blip; but every bit helps.

There is probably a better thread for this -- if any know it; feel free to shift things about.
STEVIE
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2274
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: North East Scotland.

Re: How far we've come

Post by STEVIE »

Faldaguy wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:32 am
One more woman speaking out for us:
Yes Faldaguy, but it's the numbers of all genders who don't that are the problem.
Sorry for the pessimism.
Steve,
Faldaguy
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:09 am
Location: Costa Rica

Re: How far we've come

Post by Faldaguy »

Hey Steve,

If that doesn't grab you, how about this technique?

https://galleries.parentsdome.com/conte ... 66fbe5.jpg
STEVIE
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2274
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: North East Scotland.

Re: How far we've come

Post by STEVIE »

Faldaguy,
Hmmm, perhaps some pointers from the cafe would set that guy on the right track,
The lady, however, I could speak to to my heart's content.
Good call.
Steve.
User avatar
Pdxfashionpioneer
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1514
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:39 am
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Re: How far we've come

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Yes Faldaguy, but it's the numbers of all genders who don't that are the problem.
Sorry for the pessimism.


I go everywhere, and I do mean everywhere, in a skirted garment, usually a dress, and the negative reactions amount to one per year. Seriously, one per year.

Now that my hair is longer, I get called "Ma'am" more often, but there are a few reasons for that and they're all respectful:
  • Portlanders try to respect women who are in transition from having been classified as men
    It's a conditioned response to addressing a person so attired
    My current appearance is, at best, ambiguous and they lost the mental coin toss.


Usually I just take that mistake in stride as an honest mistake or if I think about it as a compliment. That is, that I pulled off my look so well that I must be a woman.

The only time I'll make a point of correcting people is if I will be interacting with them on a regular basis.

Afterall, women aren't inferior to men, so how could it be an insult to be mistaken for one ... Right?
Last edited by Pdxfashionpioneer on Sun May 02, 2021 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 5608
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Contact:

Re: How far we've come

Post by moonshadow »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 10:18 am
Afterall, women aren't inferior to men, so how could it be an insult to be mistaken for one ... Right?
I agree. That's why it doesn't offend me in the slightest when, on that rare occasion I get "ma'amed". I also feel the same way about people assuming I'm transgender or homosexual.

In fact, I stopped for ice cream yesterday, and a nice young fella working the counter said he loved my skirt, then shortly thereafter asked me what my preferred pronouns were. This question threw me as I'm not used to being asked it. I kinda chuckled and just said, "it doesn't matter to me".

I suppose I could have just said "he/him/his", but interestingly I really didn't feel like getting into a discussion about why I wear feminine clothes and still view myself as a guy. Frankly, I've grown rather tired of talking about it all of the time with strangers who I know probably won't "get it".

I did thank him for being polite. He was a nice kid. Though he did render some news I didn't like to hear, and that was this particular ice cream shop would be closing this summer. Turns out they fell too far behind in sales through the worst of covid, and can't justify continuing on.

But to get back to women, or to be more direct, "femininity", I have found that there are many virtues associated with femininity. Thus I'm not offended if someone views me as somewhat effeminate.

I am what I am. Ironically, 2020 really helped me to come to peace with myself. I got schooled first hand over how this world simply does not have it's sh!t together whatsoever, and there isn't a soul that walks it who can judge me. Pretty much everyone is royally screwed up, so my advice to the haters is to mind their own affairs. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone, because I'm not. No, I'm saying everyone is really just as rotten and wicked as I am. So they can just STFU. 8)

Yes I've gotten quite salty lately... That doesn't bother me either! :lol:
Stu
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 894
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 8:25 am
Location: North Lincolnshire, UK

Re: How far we've come

Post by Stu »

"then shortly thereafter asked me what my preferred pronouns were. "
This question does annoy me because people have names but they don't have pronouns. The choice of pronoun is determined not by the person referred to, but the grammar of the language and the semantic reality of the speaker. I have never been asked face-to-face what my pronouns are, but I once had to fill in a form which asked me. I said "it/it". If anyone had asked me why I had chosen those pronouns (which they didn't), I would have answered that I identify as a small piece of cheese. Ask a silly question, etc.

Going back to the substantive question as to how far we've come, the answer is quite some distance in that when we started on here (Tom's Cafe - 25 years ago or thereabouts) it was inconceivable in most cases for males to wear anything other than trousers. It has since moved from inconceivable to seriously improbable. Men's skirts didn't exist - they do now, but they aren't available in your High Street, or even Internet-based clothing supplier. You have to use an extremely specialised supplier and pay heavily, and don't expect to see another man so attired except on an extremely rare occasion. We haven't yet cracked, let alone broken through, that glass ceiling - we have at best found a millimetre gap in one extreme end.

A long way still to go. Sorry.
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 5608
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Contact:

Re: How far we've come

Post by moonshadow »

Stu wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 6:21 pm
"then shortly thereafter asked me what my preferred pronouns were. "
This question does annoy me because people have names but they don't have pronouns. The choice of pronoun is determined not by the person referred to, but the grammar of the language and the semantic reality of the speaker. I have never been asked face-to-face what my pronouns are, but I once had to fill in a form which asked me. I said "it/it". If anyone had asked me why I had chosen those pronouns (which they didn't), I would have answered that I identify as a small piece of cheese. Ask a silly question, etc.
Yeah, I guess it is kinda silly, which is probably why I struggle to come up with witty answers when asked about my pronouns. But, nevertheless the question was asked in kindness, and I wouldn't go so far to say it [being asked the question] annoys me.

I'll take a "may I ask, what are your preferred pronouns?" Over a "what tha f--k???" or obnoxious laughter, of a "how disgusting..." or any of those other hateful remarks I've had to endure over the years.

No, I'm not going to bust anyone's chops over asking about my pronouns.

I don't have the luxury of living in a very tolerant community... so I take whatever kindness I can get, because believe me, I don't get much.
6ft3Aussie
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 263
Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 11:24 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: How far we've come

Post by 6ft3Aussie »

I think that as time goes on, people are becoming too busy wrapped up in their own lives to really worry about what others are doing or wearing, as long as the actions of others don't adversely affect them.

I also think that people are becoming much more accepting of the differences between people out there, especially as society grapples with many new cultures becoming a part of what makes up our world. At least here in Australia people are accommodating and open to differences in society.

As for being asked what are your preferred pronouns.....most people (at least under about 25 years old) probably wouldn't know what that meant, and while we too have a certain bogan element in society that might make a rude or negative or otherwise disapproving comment, they are very much the exception, and their comments, conduct and language demonstrate their level (or lack of) intelligence and limited English vocabulary very well to everyone else around...

I have never had a negative comment, a couple of second glances yes, and only one "what on earth" sort of look, and others were paying him a lot of attention, and that was priceless.
Good comments or compliments only from women, as others have mentioned.
rivegauche
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:05 pm

Re: How far we've come

Post by rivegauche »

I have colleagues who put their preferred pronouns in their email signature. I am not sure why - possibly some form of virtue signalling. You rarely NEED to use a gendered pronoun so they are easily avoided. I have been misgendered when completely dressed as a male and when completely dressed as a woman. I do not identify as a woman when completely dressed as one so being referred to as 'she' by people who know I am male sounds odd but I do not complain as I am presenting in a way that is very gendered as female. I just regard the whole gendered pronoun thing as a non-issue. Like others here I do not regard being misgendered as female as an insult. When I am presenting as a woman I do not identify as one and though very occasionally people assume I am a woman usually they realise I am male and avoid using gendered pronouns. If I get called he when I am dressed like that, that is also fine, as long as they don't say I am badly dressed! When you just wear a skirt as a male it is entertaining to see people struggling over whether to call you sir or madam - I never use the terms anyway and don't see why others seem to need them, Society would be more relaxed if we were not so obsessed with the gender of others - there are only a few situations where this matters, and trying to buy a cup of coffee really isn't one of them.
pelmut
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1421
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:36 am
Location: Somerset, England

Re: How far we've come

Post by pelmut »

rivegauche wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 11:03 am
When you just wear a skirt as a male it is entertaining to see people struggling over whether to call you sir or madam - I never use the terms anyway and don't see why others seem to need them,
I totally agree - and it is just as much fun when I am attempting to present as female but haven't quite got it right for some reason.  Equally funny is when someone takes me to be female and then is flummoxed because I lift something heavy or appear to know what I am talking about in an engineering situation.  Genetic women engineers get this all the time and it soon becomes irritating for them.

However, to return to the topic, it is a sign how far we have come when these situations occur and the confused person doesn't make a huge fuss or feel mortified for having made a mistake.  If it's their first experience of this, we can help to smooth things over with a few friendly words; then the next time it happens, it will be easier for them and for us.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
Post Reply