Deteating ourselves --

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
Faldaguy
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Deteating ourselves --

Post by Faldaguy »

I have read just a few hundred posts, but often find references to "women's clothes"  is it not part of our challenge to change the paradigm from clothes having a gender to generic?  Why would we say -- I like "women's" clothes, rather than "I like/prefer skirts" or 'heels" or dresses?  We men wearing skirts are part of the problem if we speak of these items as "women's" as opposed to just another style of clothing such as a jacket, or boots, or tux....
Along this same line, why 'hide' behind the term "Kilt"?  I've been asked several times, "Is that a kilt" when clearly it is just a skirt.  I've even been told once by an elderly lady that she had never seen 'those pants' (a long full skirt!);  and recently a friend asked "is that a hiking skirt" (it was an above the knee pencil skirt -- albeit it was plain-jane beige denim with lots of pockets -- and his at least was a question that called it a 'skirt', though 'softened in implication' by asking if it was a "hiking skirt" which apparently makes it more acceptable.  [On the plus side, the man did express an interest in getting his own hiking skirt.]
Maybe I am a little more in-your-face hoping to provoke some cerebral activity around gender ID, sexual orientation, conformity, presumptions and biases, so I may typically reply -- even if I have a kilt or kilt-like skirt on (which is rare) "no, it is just a skirt" with inflections that may imply 'it should be obvious' and that I'm not trying to hide (rename) my attire.  I suppose I am pleased that a few men are willing and do wear kilts, or 'util-skirts' or other "acceptable" (female?) label items, rather than foregoing them altogether -- but it would be nice if we men who do wear skirts would just claim them as one more wardrobe choice without giving them a 'gender' coding.
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by Coder »

I agree even though I might fall back to that excuse from time to time. I’m in this because I like the aesthetics of skirts, and some of the interesting textures, fabric choices, and clasps/buttons - really the little details that separate skirts from pants.

The trouble is we have very few male role modes in western culture to pattern ourselves on. So if the driving force is skirts - and there is a desire to appear “correct” in an outfit, then some - not all - will see the other bits as required wear, and to some extent the only way to do that is to adopt those same items (heels, etc...). At least that’s my take on it from a skirt-centric viewpoint.
new2skirts
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by new2skirts »

Faldaguy wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:46 am
I have read just a few hundred posts, but often find references to "women's clothes"  is it not part of our challenge to change the paradigm from clothes having a gender to generic?  Why would we say -- I like "women's" clothes, rather than "I like/prefer skirts" or 'heels" or dresses?  We men wearing skirts are part of the problem if we speak of these items as "women's" as opposed to just another style of clothing such as a jacket, or boots, or tux....
Along this same line, why 'hide' behind the term "Kilt"?  I've been asked several times, "Is that a kilt" when clearly it is just a skirt.  I've even been told once by an elderly lady that she had never seen 'those pants' (a long full skirt!);  and recently a friend asked "is that a hiking skirt" (it was an above the knee pencil skirt -- albeit it was plain-jane beige denim with lots of pockets -- and his at least was a question that called it a 'skirt', though 'softened in implication' by asking if it was a "hiking skirt" which apparently makes it more acceptable.  [On the plus side, the man did express an interest in getting his own hiking skirt.]
Maybe I am a little more in-your-face hoping to provoke some cerebral activity around gender ID, sexual orientation, conformity, presumptions and biases, so I may typically reply -- even if I have a kilt or kilt-like skirt on (which is rare) "no, it is just a skirt" with inflections that may imply 'it should be obvious' and that I'm not trying to hide (rename) my attire.  I suppose I am pleased that a few men are willing and do wear kilts, or 'util-skirts' or other "acceptable" (female?) label items, rather than foregoing them altogether -- but it would be nice if we men who do wear skirts would just claim them as one more wardrobe choice without giving them a 'gender' coding.
Good post! Some of us may be more genderfluid and embrace / acknowledge that fem side of us and may delight in discussing such garments in full detail as the taboo amongst us has gone... and as time goes on, the self imposed taboo in our mind or barrier from either sharing our liking for clothes from the other side of the aisle disappears as we share it with the outside world or significant others. Until skirts become part of the male wardrobe (designers regularly feature skirts in runway collections and push this too), the only option, apart from ridiculously priced "manskirts" made for men, is a pencil or A line for a fraction of the price :)

Skirts, like kilts, have accessories, so some may go beyond tights to underwear, shoes, bags, tops if they feel comfortable as a guy wearing those... the majority aren't kidding themsrlves they are anything but guys, but prefer this style of dress for health (skirts are more healthy for our anatomy), an alternative for trousers / shorts. Some are happy that the traditional route of complete transition to female is no longer needed, as the cliche of trans was many years ago. For some, they may transition and move on. Some may prefer more traditional kilts to skirts and join a kilt forum... it's everyone's choice.

I guess from saying it's womens clothes as being honest with oneself as there isn't any such clothing for guys right now on our side of the aisle that isn't overpriced or poorly made... I guess the just saying "yeah, it's a dress / skirt" is easier, but to everyone else they compartmentalize and may shove any other skirt that isn't a kilt around a guy's waist and call it a "kilt" to comfort themselves or avoid embarrassment. :oops:

I've been in a traditional Scottish Kilt Suit and people have called it a skirt, and said they like my skirt or dress, I just thank them. Most kilt wearers would take that as an insult and correct someone that it's a KILT... :roll:

Conversely, have been in a pencil skirt (denim) and it's been called a "kilt"... but to everyone else, they expect to see a utility kilt or traditional kilt and are slowly getting accustomed to skirts of other types being worn. We are still a fraction of freestylers, but thanks to Instagram and Tumblr, it's getting out there. Some walk a difficult tightrope with family and significant others who may be shocked by this discovery and fear the worst (see typical cliches, are you gay, do you want to be a woman etc?), some don't give a damn, some guys have boobs (and are proud of them and are still guys) and can take advantage of an extended wardrobe... some dress in smart men's shirts, teamed with a pencil skirt, boots and nice tights or stockings (guilty :mrgreen: )...

So to answer and not ramble, it's the acknowlegement these are womens clothes (even though men wore skirts for thousands of years before pants / trousers), but we're happy with that until skirts are on our side of the aisle too. Some shops have gotten rid of gendering clothes, I've even been asked by a female asdistant if I want to try a skirt on when browsing in a shop... 8)
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Coder
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by Coder »

Also, to add to the kilt comments, I don’t plan on hiding behind the “kilt” moniker, but if someone were to compliment my “nice kilt”, I don’t see the point in correcting them, well only if they are a stranger I’ll never see again. I would correct someone I knew.

I suspect a lot of guys bring it up on this bord because it is genuinely hilarious - and often people question whether the comment was being given honestly or snarkily.
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phathack
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by phathack »

I prefer to think of clothing in gender-neutral terms.
Unfortunately, retailers do not, so when shopping I have to select women and use the appropriate sizes in order to locate what I'm looking for online, Dress, Skirt, Leggings, Pants, Shorts, etc. Now there are clear design differences in the cut of some items that tailor and item towards on gender of the other but once you understand whats works with your body you can work within those limits.

I won't bother to correct someone on the Kilt vs Skirt thing even though a Kilt has a very specific design that you cant get confused with a skirt but I guess that's only for those of us that actually care about understanding what they are wearing.
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by crfriend »

Faldaguy wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:46 am
I have read just a few hundred posts, but often find references to "women's clothes"  is it not part of our challenge to change the paradigm from clothes having a gender to generic?  Why would we say -- I like "women's" clothes, rather than "I like/prefer skirts" or 'heels" or dresses?  We men wearing skirts are part of the problem if we speak of these items as "women's" as opposed to just another style of clothing such as a jacket, or boots, or tux....
Indeed we are part of the problem when we refer to skirts and the like as "womens wear" because we are putting precisely the same silly label and attribution on a piece of cloth that the marketers and those who discriminate the "gender" of an inanimate garment. It's rather silly, to be honest. I will occasionally differentiate between the two, but use the terms "male-marketed" or "female-marketed" to point up the intended market segment, not whose closet the garment wound up in.

I mix and match male- and female-marketed garments quite frequently, and quite honestly, I have more of the latter than the former in my closet because I like the finerer fabrics and nicer cuts available that are marketed to the female segment of the population but which happen to fit me just fine. Really the only components from the former side are my dress shirts, waistcoats, and some shoes -- and hilariously some of the outrageously flashy stuff with lace and ruffles was male-marketed!

So, yes, we really should stop using conventional (and backward) terminology and just start calling clothing clothing. I've been trying to do that for years.
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MrSoapsud
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by MrSoapsud »

Wasn't it Eddie Izzard who said "They're not women's clothes, they're my clothes!" ?
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Jim
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by Jim »

I thought deteating ourselves would be removing our teats. I would consider that rather self-defeating.
Grok
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by Grok »

Another possibility is to make our own. And if a garment is custom made for a man, I think of it as mens wear.
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by beachlion »

I still don't understand all the palaver about wearing skirts of dresses for men. If somebody wants to wear clothing without an inside seam, go for it. Get your clothing from any source available, being male or female. Don't give a hoot about what other people may say about it unless it concerns people dear or important to you. If my wife would be more open to it, I would be a little bolder in my way of dressing.

If people think it is inappropriate for a man to wear women clothes it is most of the time useless to educate them. Just let them keep their problem. When a man decides to wear a skirt or dress, he has to defeat most of the time his internal fear. He has no use other fights. As soon as he has enough self confidence he can thumbing his nose at the rest of the world.
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Fred in Skirts
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by Fred in Skirts »

While I have been fighting the gender nomenclature on clothing almost since I started to wear skirts as well as now dresses and tops from the female marketed line of clothes. I call them "MY CLOTHES" all of the time. I do not have a problem going anywhere in "MY CLOTHES" and now since that is all I wear so be it.

As I have stated in previous posts "Clothes do not have a gender since they are an inanimate object". They are neither male nor female.
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by Sinned »

I use the term "womens's clothes" to describe clothes that are traditionally marketed to women and as a catch-all for all adult clothes that are clearly not men's. It's sometimes easier to do that in the context of the text at that time. I don't see anything wrong with that as it makes things more lucid and readable. Ideally all clothes should be marketed to both sexes but we have to live in the real world. I wear women's camis, jeans, skirts, T-shirts, tights and other clothes. I wear them naturally and unselfconsciously and don't mind who knows but MOH seems to.
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by KenCT »

Agree with the original post. In the stores I shop in (in the US), I have seen a small number of socks marketed as 'unisex', labeled with both men's and women's sizes. It makes no sense to me that socks should be 'gendered' at all, but that is the case. Other than that, articles are strictly 'gendered', even those worn by both sexes: t-shirts, polos, sweaters, sweatshirts, jeans and pants, jackets, socks. Some of this is reasonable on anatomic grounds, some is not; some articles differ physically only in the size and fit labeling. And as many here have noted, clothes marketed to women offer much more variety in materials, colors, styling and decoration.
Both men's and women's clothes offer variation for body shape - trim, big, tall, petite, misses', plus ... I suspect that a unisex line of clothing, with a range of variation (with non-gendered labeling) to accommodate different body types, could provide most men and women with good-looking, well-fitting clothes. Meanwhile, we shop both sides of the aisle as the vanguard!
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SkirtsDad
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by SkirtsDad »

All I can think of is "size matters"! Women's and men's s,m,l etc, are not the same. Other women's sizes are somewhat alien to men, at least in relation to their own size.... 10, 12, 14 etc. These are not even the same on both sides of the Atlantic. Socks usually cover a different size range, depending on if they are for men or women, and are different in length too.

If people ask why I am wearing women's clothes I will usually say that I am not, and point out that I see them simply as clothes, clothes that are predominantly worn by women. Depending on my mood and the situation I might point out that they fit me and I am not a woman, and ask therefore what makes them women's clothes?
Last edited by SkirtsDad on Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Faldaguy
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Re: Deteating ourselves --

Post by Faldaguy »

Good on you!

My only real point was that we do not use the label "women's" in reference to our skirts, shoes, or.... they are just clothes. You've got it right--they may be presently worn predominately by women, but they do should not be granted a gender label.
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