Signifiers

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.

Re: Signifiers

Postby pelmut » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:03 pm

moonshadow wrote:Moral objections are the cousin of opinions. Very few hot button issues that people have "moral objections" to cause any actual harm in society. Especially nothing in the LGBT+ group.

Being L, G, B, or T is not a moral issue, despite the bigots trying to claim that it is one.  A person who belongs to those groups is born that way and cannot choose to be otherwise, it is like skin colour or left-handedness.

If someone wants to say that they personally are disgusted by homosexual behaviour, inter-racial marriage or a man wearing a skirt, we cannot deny them the right to their opinion - but we should fight tooth and nail to prevent them from denying others the rights to behave the way they want to, as long as it does no harm.  By calling their bigotry "morality" they are trying to induce others to do their dirty work for them.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby moonshadow » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:55 pm

pelmut wrote:If someone wants to say that they personally are disgusted by homosexual behaviour, inter-racial marriage or a man wearing a skirt, we cannot deny them the right to their opinion


A sensible statement. Unfortunately many in the U.S. do seem to have a prejudice against such people that has a way of seeping out and causing general unrest.

Homosexuality is just about accepted at this point, minus a few ultra right wing holdouts here and there. Men that wear skirts seems to be mostly tolerated (I can testify to that), it's the transgender community that's facing the biggest blowback right now.

Heh.... often times when someone around my region gets all self righteous and starts running down the "wicked people" of the modern age, I like to remind them that only 60+ years ago it was perfectly permissible, morally acceptable, and religiously condoned for a young girl (13 -17 years old) to marry a full grown man. I've heard such stories of old timey preachers standing on the court house steps in Clintwood Virginia performing such ceremonies.

Very recently, I went to school with a girl, (16 at the time) who was in a very tight knit Pentecostal tradition up in the mountains. Her father was the pastor.... she was courted by a 26 year old man whom she fell in love with. She received the parental consent to marry this man, drop out of school (mind young she was NOT pregnant) and then moved into a small house in Bedford VA where she was friends with my ex. This was around 1997!

In short order he started abusing her and when the relationship folded about six months later she was just about shunned from the church, citing that "a good Christian woman is always submissive to her husband".

Just thinking about that story makes my blood boil. What of "morality" now? "Morality" ruined that poor girls life!
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Re: Signifiers

Postby Jim » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:09 am

pelmut wrote:Being L, G, B, or T is not a moral issue, despite the bigots trying to claim that it is one. 

It's generally behavior, not being something, that is a moral issue to many. "Bigots" makes it sound like it's a moral issue to you on which you take a specific position. Saying something is morally OK is a moral position just as much as saying it is wrong. Recognizing something is a moral issue seems obvious. Taking a stand on one side of the issue may be inappropriate in this forum.

moonshadow wrote:I'm not making accusations.... but I'm just saying when I'm in the company of the big power of the state combined with organized religion.... I personally sleep with one eye open.

I too am suspicious of state power. Maybe marriage should no longer be a legal status? Just let people sign contracts and apply contract law if they like?

moonshadow wrote: Very few hot button issues that people have "moral objections" to cause any actual harm in society.

Maybe it's no longer a "hot button issue" but I think that easy fornication, winked-at adultery, and widespread divorce have hurt the institution of marriage which has harmed society. Some also still have "moral objections" lying; I'd say the widespread lying of those in power have harmed society.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby dillon » Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:53 am

oldsalt1 wrote:Getting back to making it simple. In my opinion the main objective any group as far as acceptance is to make what they are doing seem natural and normal.

As with any group there are going to be the extremist who push the issue to a level that it annoys anyone who might otherwise be agreeable.

I support the LBGTQ groups. If my sartorial choices result in my being deemed a part of the "Q" so what. The people I care about know what I am.

The entire point of this very long blog is that no matter what the attitude of the café members is we did not come here to talk about that subject

It troubles me that some who object to themes of discussion apparently continue reading the offending thread even after they have become well aware that they are disturbed by the discussion, rather than scrolling down and simply clicking on the Return to (Category) button, and reminding themselves to pass by the thread on the next login. Then try to insist the topic shouldn’t be in the Forum at all. ~sighing and shaking my head~
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Re: Signifiers

Postby dillon » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:22 am

Jim wrote:
dillon wrote:...
But my opinion is that we have more to gain by support of LGBTQ issues than we have to lose. My admonishment to those who think differently is that they consider how they are (realistically) viewed and adjust their opinions appropriately. What fool would then deny that we need allies?
...


We may have something to gain on the issue of skirt-wearing, but that does not erase moral objections that many have. This is not the place to air our different opinions on that subject, but we need to acknowledge this is a significant issue for many.

I’m sorry that my contention broached your moral views. I never meant to do so and ask your forgiveness, Jim. I did not intend to challenge anyone’s moral perspective, though I hope, as mature men, we all accept that what one man may see as immorality, another may see as a natural right. I suppose we can at least agree that morality is a human construct and less than empirical, so whatever each of us may believe is fundamentally personal opinion without basis in measurable fact. But that’s a debate in which I plan to remain quiet.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby pelmut » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:52 am

Jim wrote:
pelmut wrote:Being L, G, B, or T is not a moral issue, despite the bigots trying to claim that it is one. 

It's generally behavior, not being something, that is a moral issue to many. "

You have hit the nail on the head: a naturally occurring condition is not a moral issue but morals can become involved when the person with that condition is deciding what to do about it.  If it is harmless to others, such as LGBT, handedness or skirt wearing, there is no need for any intervention on moral grounds.  Psychopathic tendencies which could lead to murder or child-molesting, on the other hand, would be a matter for moral judgement and intervention because they have the potential to harm others.

Bigots" makes it sound like it's a moral issue to you on which you take a specific position.

I definitely take a position when I hear of people trying to excuse bullying and hatred on moral or religious grounds - and 'bigots' is a pretty mild description when they are deliberately ruining other people's lives and even driving some of them to suicide.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby crfriend » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:04 pm

Jim wrote:Maybe marriage should no longer be a legal status? Just let people sign contracts and apply contract law if they like?

Interestingly, that's the stance I took when things here in Massachusetts were getting ugly on the topic of same-sex marriage. The logic I applied to it was that since it is the State that recognises marriage -- and the bases on which it is founded which are grounded in the preservation of family wealth and allocation of assets -- it should be viewed through the lens of contract law (which the State enforces), and under what grounds can the State take into account whom an individual wishes to engage into a contract with? Does the State have the power to prevent me from selecting one plumber over another for a job that needs doing?

This came up in the context of a "litmus test" question to see what my socio-political leanings were, and when I framed my response and backed it up, everybody present admitted that they'd never looked at it in that light and that it was a valid point of view -- across all the political divisions.
moonshadow wrote: Very few hot button issues that people have "moral objections" to cause any actual harm in society.

I abandoned the notion of "moral behaviour" decades ago and decided consciously to instead exercise ethical behaviour. This after I was increasingly becoming aware that morals are fungible and open to interpretation, where ethics is a fairly immovable construct and is not open to random interpretation -- and we don't even need to get into the realm of legality in that regard because it's an abject mess.
Jim wrote:Maybe it's no longer a "hot button issue" but I think that easy fornication, winked-at adultery, and widespread divorce have hurt the institution of marriage which has harmed society.

That certainly hasn't helped any, but the reasons that we're in the morass we're in today are legion and likely founded in the twin notions of greed and avarice.
I'd say the widespread lying of those in power have harmed society.

That is absolutely without doubt.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby Jim » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:13 pm

dillon wrote:I’m sorry that my contention broached your moral views. I never meant to do so and ask your forgiveness, Jim. I did not intend to challenge anyone’s moral perspective, though I hope, as mature men, we all accept that what one man may see as immorality, another may see as a natural right. I suppose we can at least agree that morality is a human construct and less than empirical, so whatever each of us may believe is fundamentally personal opinion without basis in measurable fact. But that’s a debate in which I plan to remain quiet.


Thanks, Dillon, but no need to ask forgiveness. I just stated that this is, for many, a moral issue with different opinions and have expressed my moral perspective.

Yes, there are different opinions, and I have no problem with people expressing their different opinions or challenging each other's perspectives.

I do not think all will agree that "morality is a human construct". Many people bring a superior being into their ideas of what defines morality.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby dillon » Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:14 am

We are not so different, except that I don’t assign blame for human theology to that higher power. :|
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Re: Signifiers

Postby moonshadow » Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:31 pm

Is there a horcrux hidden in this thread?

:mrgreen:
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Re: Signifiers

Postby dillon » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:52 pm

moonshadow wrote:Is there a horcrux hidden in this thread?

:mrgreen:

I’d offer a yes or no if I knew WTF you were talkin’ about. LOL! ‘Splain that in Southern, why don’t ya...
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Re: Signifiers

Postby beachlion » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:33 am

It seems there is a connection with Harry Potter. That is way out of my field of expertise. I leave it to the resident wizard to explain it in detail. ;)
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Re: Signifiers

Postby dillon » Wed May 01, 2019 2:01 am

Oh...Harry Potter. If my kids were here, I’d ask them. But my concerns relate to the moral interpretations and assertions of the so-called “ Christian Right,” especially in light of the apparent lies of the newly-appointed AG regarding the report of the Special Counsel.

I’d say that the fecal matter has now contacted the ventilation device.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby skirtpettiman » Thu May 02, 2019 2:00 pm

moonshadow wrote:Is there a horcrux hidden in this thread?

:mrgreen:

Ah yes. Harry Potter. Seen all the films. Just don't mention Voldermort! My wife and I are both Christians but sadly she sees Harry Potter as satanic (which it isn't) whilst watching fake preachers doing fake healings on God TV.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby stevelous » Thu May 02, 2019 9:01 pm

moonshadow wrote:Homosexuality is just about accepted at this point, minus a few ultra right wing holdouts here and there. !

Read in our local paper today, Election Day' for our local council, that one of the right wing hold outs a candidate for a safe Tory ward told an elector that Homosexuality is wrong, it says so in HIS bible. Going to be an interesting result tonight.his actions could cause the ruling Tories to lose the council and be the minority party.

link

https://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn-g ... -1-6024904
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