Signifiers

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.

Re: Signifiers

Postby Fred in Skirts » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:24 pm

Personally I do not see my self mixed in with the LGBTQ people. I am a man who wears skirts and dresses, AS a MAN period. :D

My skirt wearing has no bearing on my sexuality, none what so ever. So I don't see a reason to be included in that group.

I was born a male and will die a male, nothing will change that!
Fred :kiltdance:

:whistle: Hi I am Fred and I wear skirts and dresses all of the time. :hooray:
"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not"
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Re: Signifiers

Postby crfriend » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:55 pm

It's also worth noting that there are likely not only differing opinions on this matter but also different reasons for those opinions.

I find myself in the odd position of having to maintain two opinions -- one personal and one editorial. Fortuitously, those usually coincide, but they can differ, and where they do I feel compelled by my position to take the editorial stance. To set the stage, as a moderately gregarious chap, I know lots of folks of many different persuasions from many walks of life, and I do not choose favourites nor sides. I have acquaintances from all over the "alphabet-soup spectrum" -- yet here I need to focus on The Mission of the forum and that is getting skirts and skirt-like garments acceptable to society in general and to foster uptake in the male population. Sadly, a lot of the target demographic can be a bit insecure, especially when confronted at close range by their own pals and acquaintances with their own insecurities. That facet is my driver for keeping sexuality, orientation, and gender-identity completely separate from style choices.

So, there you go. Yes, I do get personally offended by getting dropped into the alphabet-soup bucket simply because none of it applies to me in the current vernacular, but I'm not going to let that shape the editorial stance here, and that editorial stance is simply that style choices should not be confused with other situations. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar -- and without compelling reason to think otherwise, it's safer to consider it a cigar than something else.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby moonshadow » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:12 am

While I do not consider myself amongst the "alphabet soup" community, I do realize that some people will put me in that box anyway. It really doesn't matter to me either way. I am what I am, and I've been called worse.

Acceptance from any group is always appreciated, but never required.

I will admit, if I had lots of friends in the real world who were part of the LBGTQ group, and they seemed to accept me in "that manner", then I'd probably just go along with it, but since my only friends with regards to skirt wearing are on this website and this website only, then I just call myself a guy wearing a skirt... which... regardless of whatever I want to label myself, that does seem to be what I always come back to...

The article I wrote pertaining to my "gender identity" on my website has this:

I realize that by many accounts I may be considered "transgender" under the broadest definition of the word, though even in the transgender community, there seems to be a name for people like me: "gender non-conforming". It's not really a "label", it's more of a characteristic, and it does seem to fit the bill.

What is my gender? I honestly don't know. I assume I'm a man. Ultimately people will decide what they want to call me in their own way. Some people believe that "no man would ever dress the way I do", and thus would not call me a "man", and yet those same people would beat the sh!t out of me if I entered the women's bathroom, as to imply they don't believe I'm a woman either. So where does that leave me? Other more supportive people will say it's up to me to decide, and my final decision seems to gravitate to the conclusion that "it doesn't matter". I am what I am.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby moonshadow » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:15 am

Maybe we can tack one more on to the string...

LGBTQF

F... for FREE!
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Re: Signifiers

Postby moonshadow » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:17 am

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Re: Signifiers

Postby Sinned » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:38 am

Thank you, SD, for such a neat summary and a breath of fresh air in this thread. I agree that whether WE think of ourselves as part of the L+ OTHERS may think we are and unless we engage in a protracted discussion with them there's nothing we can do to stop that. So all we can do is be ourselves, act as ourselves, dress as ourselves and set the example for others to follow or not as they wont. On a personal note, I don't know whether I consider myself as a member of the L+ community [0] but really, I just don't care!!!!

[0] I've not really asked her but form her general comments and manner she may think I am.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby pelmut » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:45 am

Sinned wrote:... On a personal note, I don't know whether I consider myself as a member of the L+ community [0] but really, I just don't care!!!!

There isn't really a community except in the sense of mutual support between people who find that they have some experiences in common.  In that sense, and only in that sense, men in skirts are experiencing the same anxieties and prejudices as transwomen when they wear a skirt in public.  That is what connects them - but it says nothing whatsoever about any of the other aspects of their life.

If only the great majority of people understood that.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby weeladdie18 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:20 pm

The waters were muddied somewhat by a newer member who went on to highlight how little he apparently knows about the subject, or many other subjects for that matter,
[...]
I have not noticed that my trangender friends, than number quite a few, rely on a skirt to express their identity.
[...]
If we are to make headway then, without a groundswell movement to support us, as the LGBTQ community has for instance, perserverance in public skirt wearing is perhaps our only hope.


You have lost me on this post . Please clarify the point you are trying to make.
Last edited by crfriend on Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Attempted to fix quoting.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby weeladdie18 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:35 pm

[Mod hat on]

I am going to say this once more, and only once more before I start engaging overt power: "Do not publicly attack individuals, nor "call them out" on perceived misunderstandings. This is unseemly behaviour and really should be beneath us. If there's a beef to be personally had, take it to Private Messaging.


[Mod hat off]

Seriously, most of us here have English (of assorted varieties) as our primary language, and I'd like to think that most of acquit ourselves reasonably well with it.

We can argue ideas and concepts freely and passionately; this is not true for personalties nor individuals. Respect, please, gentlemen.


Well ???????????? weeladdie
Last edited by Uncle Al on Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Formated for quoting another member
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Re: Signifiers

Postby moonshadow » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:37 am

Upon further reflection today I do have to say that I think we do owe a debt of gratitude to those in the LGBT group for our freedom to dress the way we do even in what was once the most hostile of areas. Hypothetically speaking, if not for the "gay rights movement" that has taken place over the last 40 years or so, I'm just not convinced that we could do this (wear skirts) today, despite the fact that many of us are not G,B, or T.

Simply put, under many laws of the land just 30 plus years ago, the simple act of a man wearing a skirt marketed for a female was a crime, whether you were impersonating a woman or not.

So while I don't count myself among that lot, in all honesty I'm not sure I would really be worthy to. Those are some very brave people, even to this day, they accomplish feats that I could never imagine. Imagine, coming out to your parents that you're gay or transgender, imagine coming out to them 40 years ago! :shock: Imagine trying to function in society as a male crossdresser in the 1950's... or 60's, or 70's for that matter.

I couldn't do it, and I am forced to conclude that they are clearly stronger than I, and have the will power and dedication that I can barely imagine.

Bottom line, if not for the fight for LBGT rights over the last several decades, do you think we could do this so freely today? I somehow doubt it.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby dillon » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:43 am

I’ve been away for a few days, but am now uninhibited in my response, having just become the owner of a GMC 7500 dump truck, and negotiating on a Bobcat CTL.

But my opinion is that we have more to gain by support of LGBTQ issues than we have to lose. My admonishment to those who think differently is that they consider how they are (realistically) viewed and adjust their opinions appropriately. What fool would then deny that we need allies? You may subsist as you are, but you do so at the expense of your skirted brethren.
As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...
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Re: Signifiers

Postby STEVIE » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:03 am

Hi
I did function as a male cross dresser/transvestite in the mid seventies to eighties and it was not a great deal of fun.
However, I cannot deny the significance of the experience, it led me here after all. The concept of me as a "guy in a skirt" was in my future had I but known it.
What it meant to others is still a painful and enduring factor in my life nearly forty years on.
There was no internet for me then and the Beaumont Society did me an awful lot of good at the time too.
That was absolutely nothing in comparison to a transgendered person.
As men in skirts, we challenge fashion, the transgendered challenge the very core of their being.
Gay people have a struggle to face all of their own but I don't know enough to make a useful comment.
What I am sure of is that we are all on this damn crumbling planet together.
I don't think we can dissociate from anyone else, even the detractors.
Some sense may come from this thread after all.
Steve.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby oldsalt1 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:37 am

Getting back to making it simple. In my opinion the main objective any group as far as acceptance is to make what they are doing seem natural and normal.

As with any group there are going to be the extremist who push the issue to a level that it annoys anyone who might otherwise be agreeable.

I support the LBGTQ groups. If my sartorial choices result in my being deemed a part of the "Q" so what. The people I care about know what I am.

The entire point of this very long blog is that no matter what the attitude of the café members is we did not come here to talk about that subject
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Re: Signifiers

Postby Jim » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:50 am

dillon wrote:...
But my opinion is that we have more to gain by support of LGBTQ issues than we have to lose. My admonishment to those who think differently is that they consider how they are (realistically) viewed and adjust their opinions appropriately. What fool would then deny that we need allies?
...


We may have something to gain on the issue of skirt-wearing, but that does not erase moral objections that many have. This is not the place to air our different opinions on that subject, but we need to acknowledge this is a significant issue for many.
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Re: Signifiers

Postby moonshadow » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:53 pm

Jim wrote:We may have something to gain on the issue of skirt-wearing, but that does not erase moral objections that many have.


Moral objections are the cousin of opinions. Very few hot button issues that people have "moral objections" to cause any actual harm in society. Especially nothing in the LGBT+ group. I suppose the biggest risk factor would be the increased number of HIV cases among the male homosexual population. But I personally find it very suspicious that despite the fact that homosexuality has existed clear into the dawn of recorded history, it [HIV/AIDS] is only an epidemic post 1981... right at the genesis of the modern neo-con movement.

Very suspicious indeed.... Which is generally why I distrust those in high places with highly publicized "moral objections".

Afterall... burning heretics at the stake is just so "dark ages".... it's much more discreet to release a virus into the population.... one that seems taylor made to target a specific subculture....

I'm not making accusations.... but I'm just saying when I'm in the company of the big power of the state combined with organized religion.... I personally sleep with one eye open.
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