How many is enough to normalise us?

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby STEVIE » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:55 am

Hi David,
Absolutely agree about being out and about, flying the flag if you like. I have also said that clothes shopping in meat space is far more fun and satisfying than any on-line experience.
Unfortunately, I have had to revert due to circumstances and I have seen that as a retrograde step, quite frustrating.
Interesting note that there are two other skirt wearers in this area and I have only become aware of them from the cafe.
Are we getting "normal"? I hope not.
Steve.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Dust » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:39 pm

dillon wrote:
partlyscot wrote:I don't want to push skirt wearing on anyone, but I do feel if a few more guys did it, there are a fairly noticeable % would love to try it. What surprised me was that **I** was the one around here who had the nerve first, and it didn't cause any problems.


Or at least admirable men in the public eye. Celebs or polits. And preferably not ones as bat-shit crazy as Kanye.

Kanye is a lightning rod for sure, but I don't think he's crazy. We need all kinds, anyway. If hate to see men's skirt wearing becoming something that belongs to one group or another.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Dust » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:27 pm

STEVIE wrote:Are we getting "normal"? I hope not.

Why not? Skirt wearing for guys becoming normal is exactly what I'm hoping for.

There will always be something you can wear that will be odd or different if that is what you are going for. But we need to get guys some more options.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Grok » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:00 pm

Dust wrote:There will always be something you can wear that will be odd or different if that is what you are going for. But we need to get guys some more options.
Quite right, Dust! :thumleft:
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Grok » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:09 pm

Dust wrote:Definitely. A dress is two steps removed from what men are used to. First, it's one tube instead of two. Second, it's one piece top and bottom. If it's sleeveless, or an unusual (to menswear) fabric, that's another step or two.
I find it interesting that a few guys have begun to experiment with these. They are even more early in their experimentation than guys into MIS. In the long run, who knows where this will lead to? :idea:
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby weeladdie18 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:23 pm

Grok wrote:
Dust wrote:Definitely. A dress is two steps removed from what men are used to. First, it's one tube instead of two. Second, it's one piece top and bottom. If it's sleeveless, or an unusual (to menswear) fabric, that's another step or two.
I find it interesting that a few guys have begun to experiment with these. They are even more early in their experimentation than guys into MIS. In the long run, who knows where this will lead to? :idea:


If we follow the dress trend .....The Female loose shift dress in a male style colour will be the trendsetter
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby STEVIE » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:09 pm

Hi Dust,
I have conformed to "normality" for too much of my life, so yes I will always be likely to try the "different" route too.
If grey skirts or dresses for guys were to become the norm I'd wear red just for the sake of it.
I'd really love to see it go mainstream.
I'd actually be quite proud to have been in at the early days too.
I do believe that the revolution will come from the younger generations who challenge all the old restrictions.
That is still something that we all can foster and encourage.
Steve.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby kingfish » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:12 pm

My personal belief is that normalization is going on right now. It will be complete when the percentage of non-LGBT skirt/dress wearing men is on parity with the percentage of the women wearing like garments. My wild guess on that number is probably around a couple percent.

The thing(s) preventing it from just happening are the prejudicial reactions (perceived or experienced) that go with the negative stereotypes associated with violating any and all sex based traditions, skirt wearing being just one. The whole LGBTQ political correctness thing is repressing (but not necessarily eliminating) this prejudice. The bad news is that repressed is not eliminated. We enjoy a bit of safety from hostility, but don't get to address it. We get secretly tagged as "one of those people", treated in the politically correct manner, but still viewed and secretly judged through the lens of the stereotype.

And, we really are surrounded by morons who seem to depend on stereotypes to function. Even when I don the kilt, I get tagged with the "must be Scottish/bagpiper" stereotype, which tends to be far less negative, but still bemusing. And speaking of kilts, we've seen a large expansion of options here. Today's modern kilt, two or three decades ago, would have been solidly identified as a skirt.

In terms of where we are percentage wise, I mostly concur with Moonshadow's estimate that our concentration is still best measured in parts per million (PPM). I want to think that these days our sub-group is more toward 10-100 parts per million range. That number also excludes the Bravehart crowd. You include them and we're looking at maybe a quarter of a percent of us leaving their trousers behind.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Grok » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:56 pm

Stu wrote:Look out for certain indicators that it has become normalised.

1. Mainstream, not just high-fashion, shops sell skirts for men as permanent lines. In the UK, that might be Marks and Spencer; in the US, J C Penney or Macy's.

2. Men wearing skirts are seen in TV dramas, soaps, sitcoms and it's not an issue or treated as being unremarkable

We are not there yet, gentlemen.


Number 1. I would suggest indie businesses that persist rather than quickly disappearing.

Number 2. A Trans example on Rosanne has been discussed. We are not there yet. We need to see male characters who just happen to like skirts.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby weeladdie18 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:51 am

I would suggest that some of us who are older members were.......
Men in Skirts ....Out in The Wild ....for Twenty years before we retired from our working lives........
......reports show that we still rarely see another Man in a Skirt.....

Who will join our lifestyle....More retired Men......or the next generation.....?
We are left alone.....to do our own thing........I am quite happy with the status quo.....

The national press reports the worlds weather every day of the week......I never see any regular reports on
The Activity of Skirt Wearing Males out in The World at Large.......on a regular basis
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby moonshadow » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:13 am

kingfish wrote:...We enjoy a bit of safety from hostility, but don't get to address it. We get secretly tagged as "one of those people", treated in the politically correct manner, but still viewed and secretly judged through the lens of the stereotype.

And, we really are surrounded by morons who seem to depend on stereotypes to function. Even when I don the kilt, I get tagged with the "must be Scottish/bagpiper" stereotype, which tends to be far less negative, but still bemusing....


Ain't that the truth!
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Pdxfashionpioneer » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:05 am

We get secretly tagged as "one of those people", treated in the politically correct manner, but still viewed and secretly judged through the lens of the stereotype. ]


And just what concrete, objective evidence do you have of that? I don't get that sense AT ALL from the people I interact with.

If you're sensing that kind of hostility or condescension, maybe there's a really big chip you need to remove from your shoulder.
Last edited by Pdxfashionpioneer on Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby denimini » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:50 am

kingfish wrote:.............. We get secretly tagged as "one of those people", treated in the politically correct manner, but still viewed and secretly judged through the lens of the stereotype.

I am not sure how you know if you are secretly tagged. Don't tell me though, because I would rather continue unaware.
kingfish wrote:In terms of where we are percentage wise, I mostly concur with Moonshadow's estimate that our concentration is still best measured in parts per million (PPM). I want to think that these days our sub-group is more toward 10-100 parts per million range. That number also excludes the Bravehart crowd. You include them and we're looking at maybe a quarter of a percent of us leaving their trousers behind.

I am sure it is 10-100 PPM, I spent 2 weeks in a busy city and never saw another guy in a skirt.
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Jim » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:07 pm

denimini wrote:I am sure it is 10-100 PPM, I spent 2 weeks in a busy city and never saw another guy in a skirt.

In our village of about 1000, there are only 2 other guys (Gabe & Pete) I've seen in skirts, except for funny skits. Neither of them is as regular as I am with skirts.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby kingfish » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:11 pm

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
We get secretly tagged as "one of those people", treated in the politically correct manner, but still viewed and secretly judged through the lens of the stereotype. ]


And just what concrete, objective evidence do you have of that? I don't get that sense AT ALL from the people I interact with.

If you're sensing that kind of hostility or condescension, maybe there's a really big chip you need to remove from your shoulder.


There may be a chip on the shoulder. I've never seen the negative reaction personally. I have gotten reports of negative judgement etc. outside my fields of vision/hearing from good friends whom I trust implicitly to have my back. The latest happened at the SF convention I attended a couple weeks ago. One of the other attendees, whom I'd worked volunteer security with long ago, made negative comments on the corseted outfit I'd posted the picture of here. Other clues are the occasional slightly more formal/polite response during normal interactions with strangers. That being said, I do get A LOT more compliments, and A LOT friendlier interaction kilted. I don't know where else to attribute this difference except to the "cd/tv/lgbt=sexual deviant" stereotype.

Heck, I get better interaction when I do the more modern girly look and don a pair of leggings and high heeled OTK boots. Of course my wife has told me that I have a cute derriere.
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