How many is enough to normalise us?

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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Dust
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by Dust »

moonshadow wrote: In my region I have seen men wearing kilts (utilikilts) casually. Not often, but not unheard of either.

While I have no issue with kilt wearers (to each his own right?), they are still socially accepted mens wear and aren't really invoking anything taboo, like *gasp* wear a off the peg "womens" skirt.

Part of my "mission" with public skirt wearing, is to illustrate that men can indeed express elements of femininity and be a "guy" while doing so. This is not accomplished with a kilt, the kilt sends a completely different message. It says, "I'm a man, I'm cool and hip, I'm wearing something different and unique, but don't worry, I'm still playing by the rules".

Like a bank robber who won't park in the fire lane... because that would be illegal after all... :wink: :eye:
I think kilts do help, since they don't get much of a "he must be LGBT" reaction. We reach and get acceptance from folks who would reject a dress and heels on a guy. If a casual observer mistakes you for a woman or trans, it doesn't help normalize skirts as menswear, anyway. But kilts carry their own baggage. I could write a few pages on that alone.

But kilts are a small step in the right direction, and a fair number of people don't see any difference. Sometimes that's the folks who still see it as wrong with the full Scottish get up, sometimes it's the people insisting on calling your skirt from the ladies isle a kilt. And no matter who it's made for, or how traditional your outfit with it is, a kilt is a type of skirt.

Somewhere, there is a happy medium, where you look like a guy, people notice the skirt, but it isn't so jarring as to turn people away from the idea. It will be different for different people, times, and settings. It will change, especially if we are having some success.
dillon
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by dillon »

moonshadow wrote:
Jim wrote:
moonshadow wrote:
I'd say we're probably literally around one in a million. Yes, that means I'd estimate there might be 328 of us (non trans, non kilt wearing, freestyling skirt wearing men) on average in the U.S.
Over 1200 Skirt Cafe users, over half from US. If 10% of "us" US skirt wearers are part of Skirt Cafe, we could estimate 6000 in the US. I expect there are 10 times as many as that.
I just don't see it. Like you said, only half (600) are probably from the U.S. Out of that half, at least a quarter probably wear kilts only, out of the remainder, lets not forget those who have died, those who wore skirts for a while but stopped, and finally those who only wear skirts when nobody's looking (they don't count as they are doing nothing to "normalise" us). Then there are the bogus registrations, and there are probably a few real people who registered just because they want to read the site, but have no real interest wearing skirts. That brings us to just a shade over our active membership today. Of course, there are male skirt wearers in the U.S. who have never heard of skirt cafe, and I feel that number brings us back closer to my estimate.

Yeah, given my travels, and the fact that in all of the east coast states I've visited, I've NEVER seen a man casually wearing a skirt (save for Fred in South Carolina), I'd say that 6.56 men per state is a pretty reasonable guess. Mind you, that is just an average, some states may have zero, others may have higher than the average number.

The fact that we're never really mentioned in the media, never mentioned by the "grape vine", and the fact that those who comment to me also state I'm the first one they've ever seen adds to my hypothesis.
You saw me! And in your hometown of metropolitan Damascus VA!
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Grok
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by Grok »

I think kilting helps, in a very general way. Because kilts may help people get used to the sight of a man wearing something other than trousers below the waist. And kilting has a certain legitimacy in Western Civilization, as being almost the only exception to Trousers Tyranny.
Last edited by Grok on Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
dillon
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by dillon »

Dust wrote:Public perception and actual numbers are two different things. I'll give some examples that came to mind as I read the other comments here:

1. The gay community pushed the notion for a long time that they were 10% of the population. The statistic was bull****, but no one publicly questioned it. The actual numbers are thought to be in the 2-3% range. But they got in front of the camera and did a huge PR blitz for decades. They had help from Hollywood and made sure people heard about them ad nauseum. Pride parades and so on. It got a lot of pushback, but largely worked.

2. A city was feeling the need to increase their police presence, but didn't have the money to hire more officers or pay lots of overtime. What they did instead, was buy more cars. One painted, obvious police car was issued to every officer. They were instructed to take them home at the end of their shift, and use them for personal trips around the city, like going to the store, picking up their kids from school, etc. The city hired no new officers, but the public thought that the police presence had doubled.


Not sure how we can apply all this, other than emphasise getting out and being seen. There will be no help from Hollywood, no billion dollar PR campaign. We shouldn't lie about our numbers either. But we can wear skirts publicly more often, and not hide it from people we know.

My point here is, that numbers don't matter as much as you might think. It's a perception thing.
Gay, of course, is fairly specific, but surveys show that 4.5% of Americans now identify as LGBTQ, and since some still conceal their orientation, and others don’t or can’t accept it in themselves, I’d speculate that 9% is not an unreasonable or unlikely estimate for differently oriented, i.e. LGBTQ. Being gay, of course, doesn’t imply an interest in wearing skirts just as wearing skirts doesn’t imply a man is gay.
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Grok
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by Grok »

I think skirt like garments might be slightly easier to popularize than dress like garments. Partly because of kilting, but perhaps also because skirts may be somewhat less jarring. If a man wears a man's shirt with a skirt, he is partly conforming to tradition.
Last edited by Grok on Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
dillon
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by dillon »

Jim wrote:
moonshadow wrote:
I'd say we're probably literally around one in a million. Yes, that means I'd estimate there might be 328 of us (non trans, non kilt wearing, freestyling skirt wearing men) on average in the U.S.
Over 1200 Skirt Cafe users, over half from US. If 10% of "us" US skirt wearers are part of Skirt Cafe, we could estimate 6000 in the US. I expect there are 10 times as many as that.
Again, Skirt Cafe is relatively narrow in its appeal to men, since the general theme is toward straight men who like skirts. Though SC excludes no one, it is different from crossdressing and transgender forums, and has not been especially attractive to gay men, so I think its representation of men who may wear or dream of wearing skirts may be less than that 10% guesstimate.

The fact is that we have no reliable sampling method here, so any guess is as valid as another.
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weeladdie18
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by weeladdie18 »

I would agree with you Grok...It is easier for a man to replace his trousers with a skirt ....than it is for a man to replace
his male outfit with a dress......why create unnecessary problems for yourself ?
Grok
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by Grok »

weeladdie18 wrote:I would agree with you Grok...It is easier for a man to replace his trousers with a skirt ....than it is for a man to replace
his male outfit with a dress......why create unnecessary problems for yourself ?
Perhaps the sight of a man in a dress might stretch peoples' imaginations a bit?
Last edited by Grok on Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
dillon
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by dillon »

weeladdie18 wrote:I would agree with you Grok...It is easier for a man to replace his trousers with a skirt ....than it is for a man to replace
his male outfit with a dress......why create unnecessary problems for yourself ?
Both could be suitably masculine in the traditional sense, but perhaps we should encourage not only looking beyond gender stereotypes but looking beyond stereotypes of masculine and feminine. I’d say the starting point is garments that fit a male body, or are at least adaptable to either sex. The fabric, color, and design can be debated afterwards.
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weeladdie18
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by weeladdie18 »

Grok wrote:I think kilting helps, in a very general way. Because kilts may help people get used to the sight of a man wearing something other than trousers below the waist. And kilting has a certain legitimacy in Western Civilization, as being almost the only exception to Trousers Tyranny.
Wearing a Kilt is slightly different to wearing a skirt.....The Kilt is a traditional male garment which has increase in
popularity across Europe.... relative to my U.K. Base and heritage.....

The Man in a Skirt is a " cross the isle " search for alternative male wear.........the resistance to this new style of
male wear is limited provided the wearer has sufficient experience to know what he is doing......

The freedom to cross the isle and buy a skirt in a female clothes store is a big step forward.....the store's function
is to sell clothes to satisfied customers..... I admit to the staff that I wish to buy a skirt for myself and I then have
no problems in the store.......

I prefer to only consider my own problems....rather than get involved in the problems of the world at large...... weeladdie
Dust
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by Dust »

weeladdie18 wrote: The Man in a Skirt is a " cross the isle " search for alternative male wear.........the resistance to this new style of
male wear is limited provided the wearer has sufficient experience to know what he is doing......

The freedom to cross the isle and buy a skirt in a female clothes store is a big step forward.....the store's function
is to sell clothes to satisfied customers..... I admit to the staff that I wish to buy a skirt for myself and I then have
no problems in the store.......

I prefer to only consider my own problems....rather than get involved in the problems of the world at large...... weeladdie
While I'm always encouraged by stories of guys having positive experiences anywhere, the store always seems like more of a victory for the individual working up the courage to walk in and say "I'm buying this for myself," rather than for society being accepting of our choices. The folks in stores are paid to be helpful, and some work on commission. They would be a fool to send away someone who came in looking to spend money, no matter what it's on or who they are.
Dust
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by Dust »

Grok wrote:I think skirt like garments might be slightly easier to popularize than dress like garments. Partly because of kilting, but perhaps also because skirts may be somewhat less jarring. If a man wears a man's shirt with a skirt, he is partly conforming to tradition.
Definitely. A dress is two steps removed from what men are used to. First, it's one tube instead of two. Second, it's one piece top and bottom. If it's sleeveless, or an unusual (to menswear) fabric, that's another step or two.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by moonshadow »

dillon wrote:You saw me! And in your hometown of metropolitan Damascus VA!
That's true, and I didn't forget about your visit. However, as you reside in North Carolina, I placed you in your home states average.

I can only think of two members who are Virginia residents, myself and Hoborob.
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dillon
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by dillon »

Dust wrote:
Grok wrote:I think skirt like garments might be slightly easier to popularize than dress like garments. Partly because of kilting, but perhaps also because skirts may be somewhat less jarring. If a man wears a man's shirt with a skirt, he is partly conforming to tradition.
Definitely. A dress is two steps removed from what men are used to. First, it's one tube instead of two. Second, it's one piece top and bottom. If it's sleeveless, or an unusual (to menswear) fabric, that's another step or two.
Kinda goes back to garments tailored to the male body. Unless you have pretty buff arms, shoulders and pectorals, I’d avoid sleeveless dresses. Or shirts for that matter. No reason a dress can’t be tailored like a mans shirt.
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weeladdie18
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Post by weeladdie18 »

I do not feel that The Man in a Skirt will ever consider himself to be normalised until every WESTER MALE has a skirt
in his wardrobe. ......The reasons why We do not wear skirts for some activities are fairly obvious....

However there is no explanation as to why all Western Males do not all wear skirts for other activities....

There are many areas where there would be some resistance to skirt wearing by both male and female members
of our own work and leisure community......I prefer to dress the way I wish to dress without causing disruption to
my community and to my own lifestyle.....

The cross dressing fancy dress party is still popular....Imediately after the Party Performance the Male returns to
wearing his trousers .....Why does this strange return to the Basic Male Fashion Style occur ?
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