Where Do we Draw the Line ?

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.

Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby weeladdie18 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:16 pm

If we dig deeper into content of the recent posts there is an ambiguous statement which I sometimes make to a lady wearing an eye catching outfit.
I may say " I like your skirt outfit, " ......Am I saying ......." You look very smart and attractive in your skirt outfit "........... ,
or am I saying....... , " I would like to be able to wear all or part of your of your skirt outfit . " .......... ? ..... ..............weeladdie
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby Kilty » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:59 pm

weeladdie18 wrote:Carl, I would agree that that the rule of only one female garment at a time is a reasonable rule of thumb..... We claim to be " Men in Skirts "
We do not claim to be "Men who dress in complete female outfits and appear as women." .....this is where our credibility lays......weeladdie


Dresses are unbifurcated garments like skirts, and like skirts come with accessories, namely tights, shoes etc... some may go the whole 9 yards to complete the look in their eyes, such as lipstick and earrings for some, handbags and heels for others. As you know, a kilt would look naked on its own without at least a sporran. But you may also choose brogues, hose, flashes, sgian dhubh (knife in sock) crail jacket plus waistcoat, cravat, Tam O' Shanter as well... you get the idea :wink: Like Mark, I think a fitted pencil skirt looks great with stockings and a men's shirt or sleeveless top, but I draw the line at boots / booties, where he prefers heels that would bust my ankle :shock: it's down to each wearer. Very few have left to transition, or intend to appear as women :roll:

Jeff, on HH Place talks in more detail of his skirted trips, or jaunts, where he regularly talks of banter with his friends at the comic book store, catching a movie, looking at the latest tech, hardly female pastimes, for anyone wishing to "appear female"... I don't think there is any credibility issue, whatever a guy wears outside the standard trousers or shorts is looked down on by some anyway :roll:
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby moonshadow » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:47 pm

To each his own.. even if it might put him in the "her" box. We all have to row our own boat....
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby mishawakaskirt » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:50 pm

weeladdie18 wrote:Carl, I would agree that that the rule of only one female garment at a time is a reasonable rule of thumb..... We claim to be " Men in Skirts "
We do not claim to be "Men who dress in complete female outfits and appear as women." .....this is where our credibility lays......weeladdie


Sounds like a great rule to me, even sounds kind of catchy "rule of one"

I have other self imposed rules that I personally follow.
1 Skirt must be modest, nothing shorter than 18 inchs. I'm 5 foot 6 so 18 inches is mid knee for me.
2 Skirt must cover the gap between the knees when seated. I do not sit like a lady, that gets uncomfortable real fast.
3 skirt must be practical/comfortable. Skirts can be uncomfortable, in my early days I encountered a few, I no longer have. Must be Normal easy Care washing, durable materials, no or minimum embellishments, embroidery, no designer tears or fading. No Beads buttons or sequins.
4 skirt must be a solid color. Unless it's a kilt.

5 I admit is quirky. If it has a jeans style front it must zip Right side like men's jeans. After all women's denim fashion copied men's clothing. I'm too young to remember, but I have been told that originally women s trousers fastened left sided and or other than in the front to not appear as men's. Now apparently anything goes.
Last edited by mishawakaskirt on Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby crfriend » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:53 pm

mishawakaskirt wrote:
weeladdie18 wrote:Carl, I would agree that that the rule of only one female garment at a time is a reasonable rule of thumb..... We claim to be " Men in Skirts "
We do not claim to be "Men who dress in complete female outfits and appear as women." .....this is where our credibility lays......weeladdie

Sounds like a great rule to me, even sounds kind of catchy "rule of one"

That's not "my" rule, that's one that was advanced by ChrisM (who I hope still dwells here).

It's a useful guideline, though, for beginners or who may have an overall androgynous appearance. In my personal case, I'm so far off the androgynous spectrum that nobody could possibly be confused. Also, in general, all "rules" are mostly "guidelines" that can be experimented with.

Meaning no offence to mishawakaskirt, I'm going to dissect his list by way of example.

1 Skirt must be modest, nothing shorter than 20 inchs.

How "modest" a skirt is depends on two factors: (1) the geometry of the individual in question and (2) what one considers to be "modest". Modest in some cultures in a burqa, modest in another might be a string bikini. Individual geometry can at least be tied to measurements. Guys with short legs as compared to torsos may have to make use of shorter skirts than their more "leggy" brethren. My short 17-inchers would be very long on a guy with a 25" inseam.
2 Skirt must cover the gap between the knees when seated. I do not sit like a lady, that gets uncomfortable real fast.

I can happily sit with my legs crossed, either at the knee or at the ankle, and always have done so even before taking up skirts. If one cannot for reasons of geometry or flexibility some accommodation will need to be taken to have the garment "help you" in that regard.
3 skirt must be practical/comfortable. Skirts can be uncomfortable, in my early days I encountered a few, I no longer have. Must be Normal easy Care washing, durable materials, no or minimum embellishments, embroidery, no designer tears or fading. No Beads buttons or sequins.

This is a multi-part one, and I may as well break it down.

The notions of practical and comfortable are sometimes compatible and sometimes not. Comfortable at the beach might indicate a short and very light skirt; in this instance practicality would indicate that one wouldn't want it flying around uncontrollably. Winter brings other circumstances where comfortable would tend to indicate several layers of heavy fabric; practicality would be whether you can get the entire thing into the car without closing it in the door.

The only "uncomfortable" skirts I have encountered are ones that either don't fit properly or fail the modesty test. Note that the reasons for discomfort are multiple and others may have different "triggers".

As far as care goes, it's perfectly possible to read the tags in the garment and behave accordingly; if I can learn this skill, I suspect anybody can. "Durable" (an attempted synonym for "denim") is highly variable and a well-cared-for velvet skirt can give one may years of enjoyment where a denim one might only give one a single season. Embroidery is easily accommodated with proper care. Beads, buttons, or sequins ditto. I have no sequinned skirts but do have several with embroidery and/or buttons that do just fine.

"Designer tears" and similar hogwash are simply unacceptable; who would buy a pre-ruined garment? Really?
4 skirt must be a solid color. Unless it's a kilt.

What of skirts of, say, velvet that change their colour presentation depending on ambient light and viewing angle? How about a plaid skirt that happens to reach to almost the floor? A skirt with an interesting print on it? I have three velvet skirts, one plaid ankle-length one, and one with a purple and teal repeating print on it that never fails to gather rave reviews.

The point here was not to rubbish the original poster's notions, but to point out that each can be violated and still work. Sometimes several can be -- and it's down to how each of us interpret things.

To take the above in whole, the rig I have that I get the most positive comments on is a bog-standard men's white shirt (throw it in the wash), a purple velvet waistcoat (dry-clean), and a white/purple/teal print hand-wash-only/line-dry skirt. The skirt is at the very least three years old, likely more, and is still going strong; likewise the waistcoat. Shirts, save for my fanciest ones, tend to be disposable; the fancy ones are several years old.
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby Daryl » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:01 am

weeladdie18 wrote:Carl, I would agree that that the rule of only one female garment at a time is a reasonable rule of thumb..... We claim to be " Men in Skirts "
We do not claim to be "Men who dress in complete female outfits and appear as women." .....this is where our credibility lays......weeladdie


Nah, I can't agree with the "only one female garment at a time" rule of thumb, though I would agree that it could make life easier for someone just starting out down the path of freedom...like a set of training wheels perhaps.

Later this week I will likely be wearing 100% "women's" garments (excluding underwear) for the first time, just because I now have enough of them that any particular set of random choices has a fair chance of being that way. I will certainly be noticed as someone who is not following the rules, of course. I frequently have a lot of stubble and my comportment is decidedly masculine. I don't artificially soften my voice or use vocal fry, and I don't wear makeup or feminine jewellery or nail polish. The women's garments I wear are mostly on the neutral or even masculine side of the women's-wear spectrum, and I totally avoid "girly" flourishes. Even my high-heel boots are as manly as they can be, and my long socks are more unisex than feminine, though they are sold as women's socks.

All this reflects my own rule of thumb which is, roughly, "don't confuse others as to the sex you want to be perceived as." I think that is the biggest part of "credibility", because what we are trying to be credible as is men who remain men whilst not allowing our choices to be dictated by anti-male social conventions. What is wearing a skirt but that, after all?

The "message" I want to send is not "I wear skirts but please still accept me as manly because I still submit to every other manlinesss-dictate". To me, "credibility" must start with integrity. Integrity can include compromise but doesn't sit well with capitulation, in my view. To the extent that I want to send a message it's just "I dress to please myself."
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby Daryl » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:27 am

mishawakaskirt wrote:
weeladdie18 wrote:Carl, I would agree that that the rule of only one female garment at a time is a reasonable rule of thumb..... We claim to be " Men in Skirts "
We do not claim to be "Men who dress in complete female outfits and appear as women." .....this is where our credibility lays......weeladdie


Sounds like a great rule to me, even sounds kind of catchy "rule of one"

I have other self imposed rules that I personally follow.
1 Skirt must be modest, nothing shorter than 18 inchs. I'm 5 foot 6 so 18 inches is mid knee for me.
2 Skirt must cover the gap between the knees when seated. I do not sit like a lady, that gets uncomfortable real fast.
3 skirt must be practical/comfortable. Skirts can be uncomfortable, in my early days I encountered a few, I no longer have. Must be Normal easy Care washing, durable materials, no or minimum embellishments, embroidery, no designer tears or fading. No Beads buttons or sequins.
4 skirt must be a solid color. Unless it's a kilt.
5 I admit is quirky. If it has a jeans style front it must zip Right side like men's jeans. After all women's denim fashion copied men's clothing. I'm too young to remember, but I have been told that originally women s trousers fastened left sided and or other than in the front to not appear as men's. Now apparently anything goes.


These rules are not too different from what guided my own selections earlier on, and they still continue to guide me somewhat.

The one I have totally let go of is #2, though it was probably my #1 rule for quite some time. If I had written a guideline for other men in skirts, I would have included it. Today I would not. I can "sit like a lady" all day now without effort, because my muscles and tendons adapted over time in the absence of a trouser seam fighting with my "boys" for space. I do like my skirts long enough to not ride too much above my knees when sitting, though, for what I trust are obvious reasons. I think part of our credibility as skirt wearers is that we are able to maintain decency, as prudish as that sounds.
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby Daryl » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:45 am

weeladdie18 wrote:Perhaps a male can wear pink as a level of femme - ness, without actually being effeminate.
Does this come back to the suggestion that it is impossible for a male to actually " appear " as a female ?
Many T.V.s have tried and failed...............others consider there is no line which the " Man in a skirt " can cross....
this whole issue could be relative to our ......." maleness "...... and not the clothes we choose to wear......... .......weeladdie


It's pretty hard to hide maleness but not so hard to signal that you want to be considered as female. We men in skirts are busily taking away one of the ways that signal can be sent; wearing a skirt; but there are plenty more. Alterations of voice and general comportment are chief among those, I think.
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby Kilty » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:46 am

Daryl wrote:
mishawakaskirt wrote:
weeladdie18 wrote:Carl, I would agree that that the rule of only one female garment at a time is a reasonable rule of thumb..... We claim to be " Men in Skirts "
We do not claim to be "Men who dress in complete female outfits and appear as women." .....this is where our credibility lays......weeladdie


Sounds like a great rule to me, even sounds kind of catchy "rule of one"

I have other self imposed rules that I personally follow.
1 Skirt must be modest, nothing shorter than 18 inchs. I'm 5 foot 6 so 18 inches is mid knee for me.
2 Skirt must cover the gap between the knees when seated. I do not sit like a lady, that gets uncomfortable real fast.
3 skirt must be practical/comfortable. Skirts can be uncomfortable, in my early days I encountered a few, I no longer have. Must be Normal easy Care washing, durable materials, no or minimum embellishments, embroidery, no designer tears or fading. No Beads buttons or sequins.
4 skirt must be a solid color. Unless it's a kilt.
5 I admit is quirky. If it has a jeans style front it must zip Right side like men's jeans. After all women's denim fashion copied men's clothing. I'm too young to remember, but I have been told that originally women s trousers fastened left sided and or other than in the front to not appear as men's. Now apparently anything goes.


These rules are not too different from what guided my own selections earlier on, and they still continue to guide me somewhat.

The one I have totally let go of is #2, though it was probably my #1 rule for quite some time. If I had written a guideline for other men in skirts, I would have included it. Today I would not. I can "sit like a lady" all day now without effort, because my muscles and tendons adapted over time in the absence of a trouser seam fighting with my "boys" for space. I do like my skirts long enough to not ride too much above my knees when sitting, though, for what I trust are obvious reasons. I think part of our credibility as skirt wearers is that we are able to maintain decency, as prudish as that sounds.
Even kilted, I cross my legs. Even in trousers, some guys do. Some women sit more like guys than I do. The only tight thing I wish to put up with is an ill fitting skirt bought in error on eBay, rather than a list of five commandments :evil: The "Chequers Plan" of sartorial wear for forum members (See Brexit :roll: ) where we cherry pick what is acceptable and what isn't will not work. Moon may not be seen dead in one of my pencil skirts, where I don't like the flow of his skirt. Some dress more bolder than others, but we all have to find a style that suits us. Those in the kilt community want nothing to do with our style of dress, even some who may be gender fluid choose to move on, as Tumblr and more acceptable media may be their choice. Some just realise there's no big deal in wearing a skirt and stop posting, some tire of posting the same thing or bickeering.... :roll:
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby Sinned » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:08 am

I frequently break the "one garment only at a time" as I can wear a strappy cami-top, open shirt over it ( probably the only male garment in the ensemble ), skirt, slip and tights and black canvas topped shoes that came from t'other side of the aisle in Primark. Clear gloss nail varnish on fingernails, ear-rings. I, too, can sit for ages with legs crossed either at knee or ankle. I do tend to wear block colours but am coming round to florals, motifs and patterns.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby denimini » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:02 am

I don't have any rules. I do have preferences, which I feel at liberty to change at a moments notice.
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby crfriend » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:15 am

denimini wrote:I don't have any rules. I do have preferences, which I feel at liberty to change at a moments notice.

That works, quite handily.
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby r.m.anderson » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:53 pm

denimini wrote:I don't have any rules. I do have preferences, which I feel at liberty to change at a moments notice.


That resembles some form of feminine license - does this go (look good) well with that ?

But good for you to effect the change on a moments notice - AND pull it off with apblom !

Apblom = Self-confidence or assurance, especially when in a demanding situation.
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby weeladdie18 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:47 pm

I would like to thank my friends for their comments on my thread.....I feel that we all agree that there is no particular standard or style to which
the "Man in a Skirt " dresses. The credibility has been achieved by the style in which we individually dress and our deportment in society.
I was wearing one of my fullest summer skirt with a black woollen roll neck sweater and my drovers sporran on my waist belt.
I was in the queue in the café today. ....The elderly lady in front of me said.... " I like your Kilt.".....
I explained that I was not actually wearing a Kilt today, but I was wearing a Drovers Sporran. She was very interested in the design of my sporran.
She then told me that when she was a little girl in Scotland she wore her Kilt with her little sporran.
She told me that one day when she was no more than three years old she saw a Scotsman in his Kilt, and said to her mother
" Mummy , mummy , that man is not wearing any pants. " ....Her mother replied, " You are very naughty, looking up a Scotsman's Kilt ."
To which the little girl responded, " Mummy , mummy, I can see he is not wearing any pants under his Kilt, because he is taller than me . "
Out of the mouths of babes , comes forth wisdom.....we both thought that was a very funny story. ......... weeladdie
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Re: Where Do we Draw the Line ?

Postby Sinned » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:06 pm

Actually, r.m.a. the spelling is "aplomb".
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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