Skirts’ Demise?

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.

Re: Skirts’ Demise?

Postby crfriend » Thu May 16, 2019 12:12 am

dillon wrote:As I have said before, if “ our president” wanted to penalize China for trade, he should make all imported garments comply with a US standard sizing.

How many of those "imports" are actually being classed as such. I suspect most are directly sourced by US firms taking advantage of the effectively-slave-labour conditions in China and imported duty-free to maximise profits for the billionaires in charge of the companies involved. This is how the USA lost its manufacturing capacity in the first place -- no tariffs were placed on directly-sourced goods that were produced by the offshoring of US capacity. Of course, since the USA now has no effective manufacturing capacity (at scale, mind) it's all a "done deal".
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Re: Skirts’ Demise?

Postby beachlion » Thu May 16, 2019 12:17 am

dillon wrote:As I have said before, if “ our president” wanted to penalize China for trade, he should make all imported garments comply with a US standard sizing.


To do that, the USA should sort out its standard sizing before having others to comply with it. ;) Proper sizing would benefit the American people a lot.
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Re: Skirts’ Demise?

Postby dillon » Thu May 16, 2019 12:25 am

crfriend wrote:
dillon wrote:As I have said before, if “ our president” wanted to penalize China for trade, he should make all imported garments comply with a US standard sizing.

How many of those "imports" are actually being classed as such. I suspect most are directly sourced by US firms taking advantage of the effectively-slave-labour conditions in China and imported duty-free to maximise profits for the billionaires in charge of the companies involved. This is how the USA lost its manufacturing capacity in the first place -- no tariffs were placed on directly-sourced goods that were produced by the offshoring of US capacity. Of course, since the USA now has no effective manufacturing capacity (at scale, mind) it's all a "done deal".

Those ill-fitting items I’ve purchased on Amazon ALL said “ships from China.” I should have learned after the first mistake, but when you see the (financially absolved) retailer listed as New Jersey or San Francisco, it tempts me to take a chance. But, I swear, never again.
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Re: Skirts’ Demise?

Postby Dust » Thu May 16, 2019 1:02 pm

beachlion wrote:
dillon wrote:As I have said before, if “ our president” wanted to penalize China for trade, he should make all imported garments comply with a US standard sizing.


To do that, the USA should sort out its standard sizing before having others to comply with it. ;) Proper sizing would benefit the American people a lot.

I don't think standard sizing is possible. With different cuts, stretchy materials, the intentionally baggy to the form fitting, standard sizing is near impossible. Plus, I want different brands to be able to proportion their stuff differently, since that way there will be options for differently proportioned people.
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Re: Skirts’ Demise?

Postby crfriend » Thu May 16, 2019 10:09 pm

Dust wrote:I don't think standard sizing is possible. With different cuts, stretchy materials, the intentionally baggy to the form fitting, standard sizing is near impossible. Plus, I want different brands to be able to proportion their stuff differently, since that way there will be options for differently proportioned people.

It's perfectly possible, and it makes sense for any number of reasons. Simply putting the real measurements on things in either Imperial or Metric units [0] would be a good start.

True, a full-spec "size" -- both horizontal and vertical -- would be somewhat cumbersome, but at least if it was tied to international standards of measure one would not get tied up in "vanity sizing" or the patently insane stuff coming out of Asia.


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Re: Skirts’ Demise?

Postby beachlion » Fri May 17, 2019 12:27 am

If I buy pants or jeans, I look for the dimension 34x30. I know that size will fit me. If I can get 33x30 it will fit even better.
When I checked skirts at the thrift shop, I used my tape ruler to check the waist. With the skirt closed, I measured the waist. If it was between 42 and 43 cm, I know that size will fit me. The next check is the length. Between 50 and 35 cm is OK for me.
How simple can sizing be?
If it comes to dresses, it is a different animal. Then we need statistics of body measurements and make the right combinations of the various dimensions and find out the step size between sizes. It has been done in other countries. When I go to the Netherlands and try a size 52 for a suit, I know it will fit me. Without even trying I can buy shoes size 42,5 and they will fit me.
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Re: Skirts’ Demise?

Postby denimini » Fri May 17, 2019 1:01 pm

beachlion wrote:If I buy pants or jeans, I look for the dimension 34x30. I know that size will fit me. If I can get 33x30 it will fit even better.
When I checked skirts at the thrift shop, I used my tape ruler to check the waist. With the skirt closed, I measured the waist. If it was between 42 and 43 cm, I know that size will fit me. The next check is the length. Between 50 and 35 cm is OK for me.
How simple can sizing be?
If it comes to dresses, it is a different animal. Then we need statistics of body measurements and make the right combinations of the various dimensions and find out the step size between sizes. It has been done in other countries. When I go to the Netherlands and try a size 52 for a suit, I know it will fit me. Without even trying I can buy shoes size 42,5 and they will fit me.

I think that you have nailed it in one on skirt sizing. Coincidently my waist sizing is the same (can go down to 40 if there is some stretch) but length preference is 30 to 40 cm. I have found that hem size can be important in relation to length; can limit one's stride or stick out too much at the back.
If I bought a M10-1.25X75 bolt or a 175/70-R14 tyre, I know it will fit the purpose; the same should be for a W42,L35,H53 skirt. Note the combination of metric and imperial in some tyre sizes; a skirt could be a 42/53-L14.
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Re: Skirts’ Demise?

Postby Dust » Fri May 17, 2019 5:01 pm

beachlion wrote:When I checked skirts at the thrift shop, I used my tape ruler to check the waist. With the skirt closed, I measured the waist. If it was between 42 and 43 cm, I know that size will fit me. The next check is the length. Between 50 and 35 cm is OK for me.
How simple can sizing be?

When I see a non-stretch skirt on eBay with a waist dimension given, I know whether it will fit my waist with some confidence. I don't really know how it will fit though.

For women, this problem is exacerbated. For some women, the dimension that limits them is their hips, not their waist. The narrowest point on their waist isn't always where they want their skirt to sit anyway, but is much higher, so a high waisted skirt design will have a smaller dimension at the top than a low waisted one, and both will fit the same woman perfectly.

Even men's clothes are labeled with the cut: skinny, tailored, regular, relaxed, loose fit, etc. And some guys are proportioned so that some of these cuts simply won't fit their bodies. Dress shirts actually are labeled with dimensional numbers, neck and sleeve length, yet I see guys with shirts that are too tight around their belly!

You could mandate actual dimensions be given instead of vanity sizing, but what dimensions? It would take so many that it would just frustrate people. (Your homework: go measure a pair of guys pants and compare to the tag... Neither the waist nor the inseam is likely to match!) Then add in stretchy stuff... What dimension do you want, stretched or not? Both? What about things with two way stretch? Stretch it one way, and it will have less stretch the other way.

Try to put a massive list of dimensions that must be given, them what? What if the numbers are off? What if the intent is for the sleeves to be short, or the waist low?
Most people won't be able to make sense of it. Then someone will come up with something new that needs different dimensions, or simply doesn't have one or more of the dimensions mandated. I stand by what I said, it can't be done.
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Re: Skirts’ Demise?

Postby beachlion » Fri May 17, 2019 7:14 pm

It is not about how something will fit on YOUR body but how it fits THE body. And THE body is what the statistics will say it is dimension wise. From those set of dimensions you have to find out it fits you and how. And an additional description will be very helpful in this. You can not expect that ready-made clothes will fit you in the same way as taylor-made. But the advertized sizing should be reliable. It is annoying in department stores because you have to try more clothes to find a fitting one but for ordering unreliable sizing is a disaster.
For years they have been collecting body dimensions to have a base for sizing. It is a pity it is not making much sense in the department stores nowadays.
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Re: Skirts’ Demise?

Postby Dust » Sat May 18, 2019 1:50 am

There are differences in cut and body type/proportions that will make one woman a size 12 in style A and a size 14 in style B, while another woman will be a size 12 in both because her proportions are different so different measurements matter in a different style. Which woman's body type gets consistent sizing? You literally cannot make a system that works for everyone.

Yes, vanity sizing, Asian sizing, and differences between American and European size charts are all annoying. It could be better, but it will never just work. But the statistically average body type, or "THE body" doesn't exist as an actual person.
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