Couple Withdraw Their Son From School

[Sinned]

Well, the school has no choice really in how they treat the transgender child. Equality laws rule here so it's debatable if the case will get very far. But there are some particularly left wing, senile imbeciles in out High Courts today who have little in common with the man in the street and they have occasionally made some really strange judgements. I know that there has been a bit of media interest but well, the parents are just strange and stupid and the issue will fizzle out and be ignored by the majority here. If it had't been for this site I wouldn't have known about it and I've never heard of this Christian Concern so they can't have made much impact before.

[TheSkirtedMan]

What baffles me is that they don't make a similar fuss when a girl wears trousers to school
Charlie

I fully agree including adult women wearing male stule clothes. A few days before this incident a school in East Sussex UK hit the head lines for banning skirts for all new year 7 girls partly because the school thought they were getting to short but also because the school thought it would help the transgender children.

On 7th September 2017, BBC Radio York contacted me to be part of the discussion show on this topic and I basically said what Charlie has said here. It was a 5 minute live radio interview. If you want to hear the extract it can be found on my site http://www.theskirtedman.co.uk/index.ph ... 07-09-2017.

I did respond via social media on both the banning of skirts, the boy in a dress and the genderless childrens clothing in John Lewis topics at the time.

[mishawakaskirt]

Apparently this is the extremist group that is manipulating them: Christian Concern

And this lot differs from the Taleban or ISIS precisely how?

The problem isn't religion and never has been. The problem is extremism and the need to control all aspects of others' lives and bend them to your will. These types are dangerous to societies and need to be corralled into places where they can't do damage. The question is, "How?"

Comparing this Christian concern group to Taleban or ISIS Is like comparing oranges and bananas.

While Christian groups and people have lost tact and lovingly working/ witnessing with people, they do not go around killing and spreading fear. ISIS and The Taleban will kill you, just for you being you,whether you are an athiest, jew, agnostic, British, American, Guy in a skirt, kilt, Christian, gay, transgender, capitalist, etc.

Give me a instance where a Christian group has killed people.

The Couple has the right to withdraw their son from school, just like you have the right to wear a skirt or not.


I even have a dilemma with this sudden push to remove gender ,Gender neutral, Gender Varient etc. I have a bad feeling about it.
I am afraid the children are going to get hurt in all this. atleast when I was in school, boys were boys and girls were girls period.
what child is not awkward, shy, clumsey, and unsure of themselves. throw in this "you can self ID as anything you want" you are going to have some very confused children.

I am glad I grew up in a "Pink and Blue age"

If I had grown up "in today" I would be so confused, I doubt I would have survived the lies and would have succombed to beliving i was transgender.
Telling or suggesting some of this stuff to children is dangerous . we are talking about their lives and something with drastic long, lasting consequnces.
this makes about as much sence as allowing children to play with deadly snakes, play in the street, play with explosives, etc

Having No boundarys on children is not love.

Mishawaka

[moonshadow]

The Couple has the right to withdraw their son from school, just like you have the right to wear a skirt or not.

I'm not sure how my comments are coming across, but I'm actually in agreement with this. My issue is the big deal being made of it. As I stated in previous post, parents taking issue with how a public school system operates is nothing new here. Lots of kids around here are either homeschooled or enrolled in private Christian schools for these very reasons. It's really not that uncommon here and I fail to understand why it's "big news".

The lawsuit on the other hand is absurd. If they don't want their kid in the school, put him in a different one and be done with it. No reason to get the lawyers involved.

I even have a dilemma with this sudden push to remove gender ,Gender neutral, Gender Varient etc. I have a bad feeling about it.
I am afraid the children are going to get hurt in all this. atleast when I was in school, boys were boys and girls were girls period.
what child is not awkward, shy, clumsey, and unsure of themselves. throw in this "you can self ID as anything you want" you are going to have some very confused children.

I'm going to sympathize with this comment too. Actually this is where the going theme of skirtcafe can really shine. As the idea behind SC is that we are still MEN who wear skirts. Many of us do not identify as any type of trans, or crossdressers, we simply enjoy skirts and other "womens" clothes for various reasons.

It makes me ponder on the issue, even when I was in school, a girl could be a "tom boy", and yet she was still considered a girl and that was okay. It was often championed in social circles, familes, schools, etc. Why is it if a boy wants to partake in more girly activities, clothing, etc he is classified a "sissy" and taunted?

I understand what your saying and I can get on board with not confusing kids, but if youngsters can understand the concept behind a "tom boy" why can't it work for a boy who conducts himself like a girl? It doesn't mean he's trans, it just means he likes girly things. I liked girly things growing up, the clothes, shoes, dolls, etc, but I was always forbidden to partake of these things, and yet girls were championed into all sorts of boy stuff growing up. This never made sense to me.

I'm not sure it's so much the gender roles that are confusing the kids Mishawaka, I think it's more the BIG DEAL we're making of it in the adult world. If a girl likes to play baseball, then it is, and has been okay for many generations. We look at her and say "go for it!" Nobody gets bent out of shape. If a boy says I want to play with dolls and wear a dress, if we simply said "okay", what harm could happen? Now I'll grant if we start filling the six year olds head with "awww, I see, you are a transgender girl now", "do you know what transgender is?" "We'll take you to the doctor next month and see about adjusting your hormones".... Yeah, I can see that confusing the hell out of a kid and doing damage.

Personally if I had a young boy who was curious about girly things, I'd just let him explore it and save the political talk for later when he's old enough to understand. He may even grow out of it by then. Or he may grow into a trans-girl down the road, who knows?

But here's what would happen, my son would play with dolls and wear a dress to school one day, NO DIFFERENT than the girl who plays with Tonka trucks and wears baggy shorts. My son wouldn't think anything odd about it, until the OTHER parents start sticking their nose in it, getting the school involved, counselors, maybe even the local news media, bloggers etc. Now all of a sudden, my son is wondering what the hell he has gotten himself into!!??

This morning he was just wanting to wear a dress to school, tomorrow he's scheduled to appear on Oprah so we can "discuss" the matter of gender....

Do you see where I'm going with this? People just need to chill out and lets kids be kids and stop trying to politicize every little thing...

[moonshadow]

I mean think about it... every single time this comes up in the news it wasn't because the child was "confused" he knew what he wanted and he lived his life accordingly with supportive parents... that is until SOMEBODY had a problem with it and wanted to create a big ruckus.

SOMEBODY basically said the kid is sick and the parents are unfit! Even though prior to that the kid and parents were getting along just fine. Now because SOMEBODY took an issue with it, its front page news.

We're all about "parental rights!" But what about when a parent chooses to embrace a child who is exploring his likes and interest that just so happen to mingle into girly activities? Do these parents not have the right to raise THEIR kids accordingly? Suddenly the traditionalist are all about "getting involved" and putting a stop to it.

I know from experience. At 34 years old when my skirt wearing was outed on Facebook I didn't see what the big deal was... but boy did I underestimate the severity of the issue.... I wasn't confused about what I was or what I wanted... I was confused by all the damned commotion over it! And I was a full grown adult!

[pelmut]

Give me a instance where a Christian group has killed people.

There are plenty of examples throughout history. Many thousands have been killed in the name of Christianity.

If you want some modern examples, have a look at the suicides of transgender children unfortunate enough to have been born into bigoted religious families.

If I had grown up "in today" I would be so confused, I doubt I would have survived the lies and would have succombed to beliving i was transgender.
Telling or suggesting some of this stuff to children is dangerous

The problem is that we have been telling children a pack of lies, the confusion arises when they are exposed to the truth. Transgender children are not confused about their gender, they know perfectly well what they are; it is the adults who are confused and try to bludgeon reality into fitting their incorrect preconceptions. That is dangerous because it is killing children to uphold the mistaken beliefs of the parents.

All through my childhood and most of my adult life I did not question what I had been told about gender and I was confused and distressed because I could not understand what was happening in my life. About three years ago I began to realise that I was transgender and everything began to fall into place. I didn't succumb to persuasion, I worked it out for myself. I have heard of no instances where a child was persuaded they were transgender when they weren't but if there are any exampes of that happening, they must be very rare compared with the number of transgender children who are distressed by their parents insisting that they can't be transgender when they know for certain that they are.

Telling a child that they are or they aren't transgender is the wrong way to go about it. Children should be told that most people aren't transgender but some people are; then they can decide whether they are or not. It is no more difficult than telling a child that some people are left-handed.

[Stevie D]

... If a boy says I want to play with dolls and wear a dress, if we simply said "okay", what harm could happen? Now I'll grant if we start filling the six year olds head with "awww, I see, you are a transgender girl now", "do you know what transgender is?" "We'll take you to the doctor next month and see about adjusting your hormones".... Yeah, I can see that confusing the hell out of a kid and doing damage..

It doesn't work like that.
Pelmut puts it very well and succinctly, better than I could have written:

Transgender children are not confused about their gender, they know perfectly well what they are; it is the adults who are confused and try to bludgeon reality into fitting their incorrect preconceptions. That is dangerous because it is killing children to uphold the mistaken beliefs of the parents.

... I have heard of no instances where a child was persuaded they were transgender when they weren't but if there are any exampes of that happening, they must be very rare compared with the number of transgender children who are distressed by their parents insisting that they can't be transgender when they know for certain that they are.

I totally agree with this - it is exactly right and bears out my own experience of trans youngsters whom I've known, including my own daughter.

[crfriend]

The Couple has the right to withdraw their son from school, just like you have the right to wear a skirt or not.

Indeed, although the one that's really likely to suffer is the child. However, the couple -- assisted by (or, more likely manipulated by) a rather militant group -- is trying to shove their beliefs onto others using the power of the State, and this is where the problem really lies.

OK, so you can't deal with the notion of a boy in a frock. Big fat hairy deal. Pull your kid from the environment and wall yourselves away from the big bad world. Unless the child is innately curious -- and the parents don't beat it out of him -- and can educate himself, he'll likely wind up a nobody in the world, probably on assistance. Don't try to ram your own peculiar interpretation of some religion on the rest of the population who entirely likely don't share your own peculiar interpretation of your religion.

I am glad I grew up in a "Pink and Blue age"

"Pink" is somewhat mutable and always has been; see the commentary on "tomboys". "Blue" is absolute and prohibited from wavering. See the problem?

[moonshadow]

It doesn't work like that.
Pelmut puts it very well and succinctly, better than I could have written:

Transgender children are not confused about their gender, they know perfectly well what they are; it is the adults who are confused and try to bludgeon reality into fitting their incorrect preconceptions. That is dangerous because it is killing children to uphold the mistaken beliefs of the parents.

... I have heard of no instances where a child was persuaded they were transgender when they weren't but if there are any exampes of that happening, they must be very rare compared with the number of transgender children who are distressed by their parents insisting that they can't be transgender when they know for certain that they are.

Indeed, I couldn't have said it any better. However do understand my example (quoted below for reference) was only meant to serve as a hypothetical example, and somewhat of an extreme one at that....

Now I'll grant if we start filling the six year olds head with "awww, I see, you are a transgender girl now", "do you know what transgender is?" "We'll take you to the doctor next month and see about adjusting your hormones".... Yeah, I can see that confusing the hell out of a kid and doing damage.

I will say that in regards to the social climate around here in these parts (the redneck part of the U.S.) that I'm not sure I'd use the words "confused" to describe the parents and adults in describing their response to a trans-kid situation. I'd say it's more a matter of redneck/conservative bigotry. It wouldn't take much for them to understand what's going on with the kids, but they won't even make an effort. For them, it's so much easier to dismiss it as the acts of a family of freaks. Some will endorse their bigotry by peppering in bits of religious dogma to enforce the point.

I think I've touched on this following point before in other threads, but personally I'd like to see a world where gender roles have no place, thus rendering terms like "transgender" and "cis" as obsolete. Just let people (children and adults) be what they want to be and don't question every little thing. But, we're a long way from that. Maybe in the next millennium.

...Pull your kid from the environment and wall yourselves away from the big bad world. Unless the child is innately curious -- and the parents don't beat it out of him -- and can educate himself, he'll likely wind up a nobody in the world, probably on assistance....

Interesting side story along these lines, I have a few real world examples of this. Yes, leave it to me, a lifetime resident of redneck-land U.S.A... of course I'll have a few stories..

There is a family related to me somewhat distantly, however I "grew up" with them, as their mother babysat me often back in those days. It was the late 80's/early 90's and the mother suddenly had a revelation of "good old timey religion" so to speak, and decided that she didn't want her three younger children attending public school and decided she would home-school them instead. It wasn't over anything LGBT as that wasn't really a hot button issue in schools at the time, rather I think it had to do with the overall secular direction of the public school system. It was about the time when schools started to become forbidden to have school led [0] prayers every morning. The last year I remember a school led prayer was I think first grade. (circa mid 1980's) Every day before lunch the principal would come over the P.A. system, I still remember it...
"Students, everyone stand up for the blessing" *pause*
And we all would stand and chant:
"God is great, God is good, let us thank him for our food, by his hands, we are fed, give us lord our daily bread, ahhh-men"

VERY MUCH illegal these days!

Anyway, those were three kids out of five. (the youngest three). All three grew up not knowing how to function in a social situation having virtually zero experience interacting with people outside of the family. The daughter is about my age, is basically a flat out redneck drunkard, and basically works whatever minimum wage job she can find sometimes, other times to my knowledge she just stays at home and more or less burns out. The youngest, a boy, grew into a man who by the time of his mid 20's had already been through a number of marriages and was well over his head in child support payments. He comes and goes at home. The oldest, a boy finally hit the big time after years and years of alcoholism, he started getting into pills. He had the best chance. He was actually a VERY good carpenter, well on his way to becoming a very successful contractor. He spent years in and out of jail, constantly on a suspended license, constant woman problems, and last I heard he finally found his way into prison for the long haul. I'm not sure what he did to put him there.

I remember when the mother first pulled the kids out of public school, my father, who had custody of me at the time weighed the option of allowing her to home-school me. I'm not sure what happened but the subject just dropped. I remember actually wanting to as the three kids kept bragging about how fun it was going to be. I think it was due to some state regulation where she couldn't home-school me as she wasn't my actual mother. Looking back on it now, all I can say is, THANK GOODNESS FOR STATE REGULATIONS! I am VERY thankful to have been educated in a secular system. And SHOUT OUT to Ms. Keltz, the teacher who taught me how to read! Literacy is a gift I hold most dear!

[0]As I debate with my father on this ALL. THE. TIME.... NOBODY has ever forbidden a child to pray at school, or bring a bible for that matter, it just can't be led by a member of the faculty. In fact many schools even today have a simple "moment of silence" to give children of any and ALL religions a moment to their own various faiths. And of course, children are free to read their own religious literature, be it a bible, koran, book of shadows, etc as long as it's not during instruction time, or otherwise at a time that would interfere with the process of education.
Source: Experience. At Amber's old high school in Damascus, she would comment on students bringing their Christian literature to school all of the time, so at the time she was into some of my Pagan books, and she brought them in to read them during lunch and other free moments. Nobody bothered her either.

[Darryl]

Thought experiment:

Take 50 biological male boys, 6th to 8th grade. Take 50 biological female girls, 6th to 8th grade.

Get them naked, put them all in the same room overnight for a week. Observe what happens.

What is social? What is gender-related? What is preference?

When they leave the room for school, etc. Sun-Tue-Thu ALL wear shorts, Mon-Wed-Fri ALL wear skirts, Sat THEIR CHOICE.

For comparatives, one might wish to repeat with a group of 3rt to 5th graders.

OK....fill the moat, raise the drawbridge, release the gators.....

[pelmut]

Thought experiment:

Take 50 biological male boys, 6th to 8th grade. Take 50 biological female girls, 6th to 8th grade
...What is gender-related? ...

You wouldn't know, because you haven't asked the boys and girls anything about their genders. Your data would only be related to their sex.

[Darryl]

Thought experiment:

Take 50 biological male boys, 6th to 8th grade. Take 50 biological female girls, 6th to 8th grade
...What is gender-related? ...

You wouldn't know, because you haven't asked the boys and girls anything about their genders. Your data would only be related to their sex.

So their gender would make no difference in their behavior? We'd only see roles based on physical sex?

[Grok]

I understand what your saying and I can get on board with not confusing kids, but if youngsters can understand the concept behind a "tom boy" why can't it work for a boy who conducts himself like a girl? It doesn't mean he's trans, it just means he likes girly things. I liked girly things growing up, the clothes, shoes, dolls, etc, but I was always forbidden to partake of these things, and yet girls were championed into all sorts of boy stuff growing up. This never made sense to me.

Online I found a definition for a Janegirl-"A boy who dresses and sometimes behaves the way girls are expected to, often into more feminine things like dolls, dancing, fashion, gymnastics or beauty. Stereotypically wears clothing of more feminine taste and design but not necessarily full drag".

[Grok]

It is no more difficult than telling a child that some people are left-handed.

A metaphor occurred to me:

1. Those who prefer trousers could be described as right handed.

2. Those who prefer skirts could be described as left handed.

[Sinned]

It occurred to me as to why the couple's children should be confused about a boy wearing a dress in these modern times. It occurred to me that the children must have led a very sheltered life. I don't know if I was unusual, and maybe some of you can confirm if you were like me, but certainly by the age of 8 I knew the rudiments of how sex worked and about masturbation and what homosexuality was. It took years of reading and discussion to add to that basic knowledge and many years before I had any practical experience but I don't feel that I was unusual in this. And that was in the very early sixties where curricular sex education was non-existent. I know that we did play around swapping clothes with the girls on occasion at that age. I don't remember any boy wearing a dress to primary school but if one had it would have been talk for a little while but I certainly would have accepted it. I don't think the system would have, though, but then these things weren't done then.