Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

[Grok]

Grok,
I'd go mainstream.
I blazed the trail for a bit of it.
Are we not all about choice and freedom of that?
Steve.

Good point.

One stultifying aspect of being male has been the dull monkey suits that we have been expected to wear.

[Grok]

To the extent that there are parallels, I would say we are at the initial stage of experimentation mentioned in the article.

It seems that Bloomers were eventually tolerated as athletic wear.

But during my childhood females still mostly wore skirts/dresses.

[wsherman]

My vote is mainstream!
Then what would our Significant Other's have to say?

Take care!
Bill

[STEVIE]

Grok,
My experience simplified when I realised I could cross the "aisles"
The choices went off the graph.
Steve.

[Grok]

Good point, wsherman.

Yes, Steve, it occurred to me that free styling involves experimentation, as members try things and discover what works and what does not.

Other examples of experimentation would include:

1. The attempts to market skirts specifically designed for men.

2. Skirtcraft unisex skirt.

3. Creations by members-see the sewing section.

4. Kilt variants.

5. As I recall, at least one member tried sarongs.

[crfriend]

I stand with Stevie and WSherman on this.

Given the current climate, I'd have to say that it's now "mainstream or bust". This may be the final shot at anything meaningful in this regard in our lifetimes. If we do not shoot for that, we are as guilty as our detractors for not bringing it to fruition.

Each of us will have to pick and choose his battles. Some may lose their jobs and livelihoods because of a simple choice of how one attires himself. Moonshadow has come close to that already. More will likely follow as societal attitudes harden further. But, if we do not try we will -- by default -- fail. I've chosen my battles, and I stick to that regime; the only place I yield is when I am acting as an emissary of my company, and in that role I toe the line.

Aim for the stars, lads; dream big and try to execute on those dreams. If we're lucky we might hit the moon. It'll be an improvement over the here and now.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Hello Grok,

I'm not sure how to answer your survey question because you're juxtaposing two items that are on different axes of experience.

Whether or not most men publicly wear skirts and dresses as part of their everyday wardrobes, I would like it to be completely acceptable for me to do so. Since, I have started to wear clothes from the other side of the aisle on a daily basis, I have been very pleasantly surprised at the lack of negative reactions and the acceptance I have experienced. Nonetheless, I still don't feel comfortable wearing those things to work or to meetings of my professional association. Perhaps if I had been with an organization for a number of years and felt established there, I would probably feel differently, but I'm not so I don't.

Despite the results of our recent election and the encouragement that has given to neo-Nazis, White Supremacists and other such people, on the whole I don't get the feeling that there HAS been a hardening of attitudes against us skirtwearing males, LGBTQI(ad nauseum) folks, immigrants or anyone else. The mobilization of all kinds of people to demonstrate against the President's excesses, the outpouring of editorial sentiment against Trump's outrageous actions and the efficient functioning of the courts to nullify his illegal actions all tell me that public sentiment is right about where it's been.

And that's what counts. Has anyone experienced people treating you any differently than you have been treated all along? If so, please let us know that so we can analyze it and help you strategize how to handle it productively.

But honestly, nobody's going to bother to make what we do illegal. Most voters voted against Trump. In fact, the plurality went to Hilary Clinton. Despite the Republican lock on the statehouses, where Congressional Districts are defined, the Democrats picked up seats in both the House and the Senate. Not enough, unfortunately, but Dad always said, "You can't go broke making a small profit." (Actually, you can and I demonstrated to him one way that can happen. If expenses grow faster than cashflow, you can be profitable, but still be bankrupt.)

To get back to my direct point, in general people are becoming more tolerant on an individual basis, but a very large number are frustrated that nearly all of the wealth created since Pres. Reagan was elected has gone to the top 1% and they're scared that it is not only going to get worse, but much worse for their kids. Perhaps when those people see that they were conned by our current President they will look beyond the simple-minded scapegoating of immigrants, legal and illegal, and decide to back the politicians who are actually trying to make their lives better.

All that said, by all means be energized by the current situation to speak out and make common cause with whoever you can to advance the cause of freedom and human rights. These are tumultuous times, but we have more potential allies than you might think and history is on our side.

Working together people can make a big difference. I was one of the college students who protested the war in Vietnam. Even though Pres. Nixon and his minions did everything they could think of to dismiss us as irrelevant, misled and wrong-headed, we forced him to bring the war to an end. And most of us, myself included, were too young to vote. (Ironically, the voting age dropped to 18 just in time for me to turn 21 before the next election! But we had made ourselves heard on that point as well.) If non-citizens can make that much difference by banding together, just think what actual voting citizens can accomplish. Just find some allies, select a pivot point and don't be afraid to stand up and be genuine.

[oldsalt1]

This is not off topic can we please keep politics.out By the way I was sent to Nam under LBJ not nixon

[Grok]

Hello Grok,

I'm not sure how to answer your survey question because you're juxtaposing two items that are on different axes of experience.

Whether or not most men publicly wear skirts and dresses as part of their everyday wardrobes, I would like it to be completely acceptable for me to do so.
.

These threads imply that the majority of men are will start wearing skirts any day now. An implication that is very unrealistic.

I'm hoping that the majority will accept the presence of a group of mavericks.


But the average male has grown up with a popular culture that views male skirt wearing as a ridiculous joke. Even if he is tolerant of the maverick, that doesn't mean that he himself will get the courage to wear a skirt in public.

[crfriend]

I'm hoping that the majority will accept the presence of a group of mavericks.

The majority is usually pretty tolerant of things so long as they're not stirred up about something. By far and away the worst problems I've encountered are dirty looks, one crack of "What are you?", and assorted inappropriate questions regarding my underwear; however, most interactions have been entirely positive.

But the average male has grown up with a popular culture that views male skirt wearing as a ridiculous joke. Even if he is tolerant of the maverick, that doesn't mean that he himself will get the courage to wear a skirt in public.

On the face of it, that seems true enough, and that's why the mavericks need to present a compelling image not only in style, but also eloquence and civility. Intelligence also helps, even if it does seem to be reviled at the moment.

Popular culture isn't going to dismiss the "joke" aspect until enough folks have met an excellent example of a bloke in a skirt and realise that the "joke" simply isn't true. This, however, is going to take a mind-numbingly long time at the rate we're going.

[Grok]

Popular culture isn't going to dismiss the "joke" aspect until enough folks have met an excellent example of a bloke in a skirt and realise that the "joke" simply isn't true. This, however, is going to take a mind-numbingly long time at the rate we're going.

On the other hand, what about impressionable young people? Before becoming set in their ways, they noticed excellent examples who wear one pipe instead of two? Will they accept and perpetuate the propaganda of popular culture?

Or will they be a little more open minded?

[crfriend]

On the other hand, what about impressionable young people? Before becoming set in their ways, they noticed excellent examples who wear one pipe instead of two? Will they accept and perpetuate the propaganda of popular culture?

If they can be reached during the very narrow window between when they start properly developing their minds to be accepting and curious about the world around them and the time they become teenagers (which are notoriously conformant), perhaps acceptance and even uptake might be had. However, once the teen years set in, it's likely too late. This is one of the reasons I worry somewhat about boys who are allowed skirts when they're little, because once they become teenagers the abuse and bullying are going to be terrible -- at least in the undeveloped world where such behaviours are not just accepted but sometimes lauded.

[Grok]

Perhaps a seed of doubt might be planted in the young. For example, why are kilted men tolerated? Why is kilting OK?

A subversive effect-encouraging the young to doubt the dogma.

[Grok]

Members seem to be hoping for some sort of breakthrough.

There are a few garments you could try during the wait.

Though sarongs are not my particular interest, it has occurred to me that you could improvise with a rectangle of cloth. Maybe wear it at the beach. And you could select cloth with bright colors.

In the sewing section, I described making what I call a "poncho style caftan". After experimentation, I concluded that you could throw together a garment suitable as lounge wear.

Niche things, really.

[Caultron]

The only thing about fashion I know for sure is that it's unpredictable.