Unisex Skirts for Children

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.

Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby crfriend » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:34 pm

Yuki wrote:Just yesterday I saw a girl with a tail and classic goth/emo kid clothes. And a Bennie because the school now allows hats for some reason

That must've been for something school-sanctioned. I would be astounded if things have loosened up enough to allow for the wearing of fake tails; usually the staff would have sent her home to change (causing a fire-storm, no doubt).

Typically school systems are designed as a cultural/societal choke-point to destroy any trace of individuality in children before they become adults in much the same way that Basic Training destroys a future-soldier's sense of self. Break the will, and re-form it in the desired/"correct" shape for the future.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:Remember, in high school most kids conform, but to the norms of their own group. So there's quite a range of "normal" behaviors. And just as in adult society you have the artists, who to prove they're creative, are non-conformists, within the limits of their artist circle.

The range of "normal behaviours" are rather rigidly controlled, first by the youngsters themselves, but also with iron fists by the school staff who answer only to the school boards. The staff will allow some variance, but it's the staff's assignment to make sure that the youngsters emerge as obedient little 'droids who cannot question authority when the process is over. The damage so done can sometimes never be undone -- which is likely why it seems that we in the men's skirting movement all tend to be moderately up there in age, mostly of well-above-average intellect, and already reasonably successful.

To pick a minor nit with artists being the only ones who are creative, I'll posit that creativity isn't just good, it's a vital must in most fields of endeavour. Sure, we all take for granted that artists (painters, designers, musicians, &.c) must be creative, but so must everyone else, for without creativity -- the ability to take a look at problems and come up with novel solutions we would go nowhere as societies nor as a species. Now, societies can -- and do -- fail; I think we're doing, overall, pretty well as a species, though. The question then becomes, "When the next big societal downfall happens, will it use atomic technology to take the planet with it?" I'm hoping it won't.
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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby Caultron » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:15 pm

Yuki wrote:...Since I've started being a substitute teacher I've seen some different things. Just yesterday I saw a girl with a tail and classic goth/emo kid clothes. And a Bennie because the school now allows hats for some reason

Yes, well, what fun are clothes without deviating from the norm, trying new things, and getting some attention?

The usual "excuses" for dress codesare that drawing attention to each other's clothes detracts attention from the subject matter, and that it encourages gangs by letting them dress in some unique way. I don't really buy either of those but there you have it.

Some parents like uniforms too, because it saves the expense of buying their children a full wardrobe of school clothes.

Wouldn't it be fun if schools decided, in the name of sexual equality or whatever, that all students had to wear trousers two days a week, skirts two days, and either on the fifth day, student gets to pick the days? Of course it'll never happen, and that would be another enforced dress code, but it'd still be fun to see what happened.

Parents with pitchforks, I suppose.
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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby Stu » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:44 pm

Caultron wrote:Wouldn't it be fun if schools decided, in the name of sexual equality or whatever, that all students had to wear trousers two days a week, skirts two days, and either on the fifth day, student gets to pick the days? Of course it'll never happen, and that would be another enforced dress code, but it'd still be fun to see what happened.


In the UK, there is something which is pretty much the standard school summer dress, almost regardless of which school a child goes to. It is universal, cool, simple and very cheap to buy (about US$9). This is it:

Image

The ONLY reason that this simple and sensible piece of clothing is limited to females is ... the taboo against males wearing unbifurcated garments. Instead, boys are stuck in hot weather generally course wearing black, navy or grey trousers, a shirt with a collar and a tie.

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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby Caultron » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:59 pm

Stu wrote:The ONLY reason that this simple and sensible piece of clothing is limited to females is ... the taboo against males wearing unbifurcated garments. Instead, boys are stuck in hot weather generally course wearing black, navy or grey trousers, a shirt with a collar and a tie.

Who's placing the restriction? The school? The parents? The students? Peer pressure?
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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby Stu » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:09 pm

Caultron wrote:Who's placing the restriction? The school? The parents? The students? Peer pressure?


Social taboos - enforced by parents and peers.
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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby STEVIE » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:37 pm

Two points,
Carl, as a teenager, sure I wore a "uniform", of a kind. It was one approved of by my peers and most assuredly hated by my parents, elders and betters. If the trends of the day had included skirts for boys, this conversation may never have happened. Alas, that was not to be.
Now, as a parent, I was certainly influenced by societal norms in how I raised my kids. I'll ask my son if he would have been happy being dressed in a skirt. I'll also ask the Mother of any future Grandchildren I may have what she thinks. These two are totally OK with my me in a skirt ,so their answers could be interesting.
On balance, personally I wouldn't have tried to choose a skirt for my son but I'd have backed him to the utmost if he had expressed that desire himself.
That has nothing to do with my interests, everything to do with being a parent. I'd also apply the same considerations to my daughter.
She wore trousers at a School Prom when she was twelve. In Scotland ,that meant DRESSES and KILTS all round. I had so much respect for her that night and still do!
I hope this makes sense!
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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby crfriend » Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:30 am

STEVIE wrote:[... A]s a teenager, sure I wore a "uniform", of a kind. It was one approved of by my peers and most assuredly hated by my parents, elders and betters. If the trends of the day had included skirts for boys, this conversation may never have happened. Alas, that was not to be.

Note that the creative streak was, indeed, there, but got suppressed. The notion of skirts being "acceptable" on guys is still fairly alien to many, if not most. I recall being rather torqued off that I had to endure full-enclosure in long sleeves and trousers where the gals got to wear light floaty stuff in summer but never making the jump to even contemplating donning a skirt myself. I suspect even if I had, the parental, staff, and peer backlash would have been insanely painful.
Now, as a parent, I was certainly influenced by societal norms in how I raised my kids. I'll ask my son if he would have been happy being dressed in a skirt. I'll also ask the Mother of any future Grandchildren I may have what she thinks. These two are totally OK with my me in a skirt ,so their answers could be interesting.
On balance, personally I wouldn't have tried to choose a skirt for my son but I'd have backed him to the utmost if he had expressed that desire himself.

Kudos, absolutely, on that stance vis-a-vis your son. It'll be only the very remarkable ones who make the jump of their own thought and conscience, but once they do, they need strong support lest they get mercilessly beaten down.

I'd love to know what your son and daughter-in-law have to say on the notion!
That has nothing to do with my interests, everything to do with being a parent. I'd also apply the same considerations to my daughter.
She wore trousers at a School Prom when she was twelve. In Scotland ,that meant DRESSES and KILTS all round. I had so much respect for her that night and still do!

But that's socially acceptable which, for better or worse, makes it unremarkable. In any event, a proud dad is not to be trifled with!
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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby moonshadow » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:32 am

I would say that parental support would just about be mandatory if a young boy were to want to wear skirts and/or dresses, especially to school. There WILL be some blow back by someone, and children are generally not well suited to handle that type of friction alone, they need the backing of mom and dad.

School is socially tough, a hard 13 years to get through for almost anybody. In school, things may not stop with just words, and kids can be VERY cruel. It doesn't just stop with dirty looks and snares. The skirting boy IS subject to be physically harassed, books knocked out of his hand, spit balls in his hair, damage to the garments by peers, kids trying to lift the skirt, so on and so forth. I can imagine scenarios where a bunch of bullies gang up on him, pick him up and throw him in the girls shower room or restroom, only to have the girls screaming for him to "GET OUT!"... then the girls parents get involved, and suddenly it's a trans-incident, everyone in the community is calling for the boys head on a stake, it hits the news, courts get involved, police....

All because he just wanted to wear a skirt...

Kudos to people like Jaden Smith for at least attempting to normalize it for children.
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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby Caultron » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:09 pm

moonshadow wrote:?..The skirting boy IS subject to be physically harassed, books knocked out of his hand, spit balls in his hair, damage to the garments by peers, kids trying to lift the skirt, so on and so forth. I can imagine scenarios where a bunch of bullies gang up on him, pick him up and throw him in the girls shower room or restroom, only to have the girls screaming for him to "GET OUT!"... then the girls parents get involved, and suddenly it's a trans-incident, everyone in the community is calling for the boys head on a stake, it hits the news, courts get involved, police...


I agree the school needs to be notified and at least willing (if not enthusiasticaly) to provide reasonable acceptance, support, and protection.

As to the splitballs, skirt-lifting, bullying, and so forth, that hasn't been reported in any of the accounts I've seen. I suppose there's some chance of it, children being cruel as they are, but a boy in a skirt deserves the same protections as anybody else.

ethelthefrog, has your son experienced anything like this? And if so, why? And what was done about it?
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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby Pdxfashionpioneer » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:30 am

Carl,
Being a social animal, homo sapiens have always sought the approval of their peers, but as you suggested, the survival of the species required adaptability and flexibility, hence people have always accepted variations. And many, if not most public schools aren't anywhere as rigid as you make them out to be.

So Moon,
Just as Caultron said, I've run into plenty of accounts of boys wearing skirts to school and there have been challenges and, yes Carl, some aren't even as accepting as their state laws require (California public schools, by state law, are required to accommodate and provide support services to transgendered students.), but none of the cases reported anything resembling the living horrors you've imagined. The world, as you've reported you keep seeing, isn't half as dangerous a place as one might imagine.
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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby moonshadow » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:38 am

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:So Moon,
Just as Caultron said, I've run into plenty of accounts of boys wearing skirts to school and there have been challenges and, yes Carl, some aren't even as accepting as their state laws require (California public schools, by state law, are required to accommodate and provide support services to transgendered students.), but none of the cases reported anything resembling the living horrors you've imagined. The world, as you've reported you keep seeing, isn't half as dangerous a place as one might imagine.


I suppose school could have changed considerably since I was there almost two decades ago.

Also, consider that I'd say that most schools across the U.S. don't have any skirt wearing boys [0] generally speaking. So really there isn't enough data to compile a good statistic on.

[0] By "skirt wearing boys", I am speaking of boys who do not identify as "girls". Simply boys who want to wear skirts.

I can say that when I was in school, you got bullied pretty bad if you strayed from the norm.
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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby skirted_in_SF » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:11 am

moonshadow wrote:I can say that when I was in school, you got bullied pretty bad if you strayed from the norm.

Hmm, I must have been blessed in where I went to school even though it was in a small farming town in eastern Washington state.
We moved to this town from the San Francisco suburbs just before Thanksgiving of my freshman year of high school. I was different because I wore Farah slacks and button shirts all my remaining high school years. The closest I came to being bullied was some big, dumb lug standing on my toes facing me while I was sitting on a window sill one time. I just looked at him and he left. I was slight and about 130 pounds at the time, so a physical response was out of the question.
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Back in my skirts in San Francisco
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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby Grok » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:44 pm

crfriend wrote:
Yuki wrote:Just yesterday I saw a girl with a tail and classic goth/emo kid clothes. And a Bennie because the school now allows hats for some reason


The range of "normal behaviours" are rather rigidly controlled, first by the youngsters themselves, but also with iron fists by the school staff who answer only to the school boards. The staff will allow some variance, but it's the staff's assignment to make sure that the youngsters emerge as obedient little 'droids who cannot question authority when the process is over. The damage so done can sometimes never be undone -- which is likely why it seems that we in the men's skirting movement all tend to be moderately up there in age, mostly of well-above-average intellect, and already reasonably successful.
And as adults, we have a degree of independence-when away from work-that we lacked as kids.
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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby Grok » Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:14 pm

I suspect that many of those who try skirting in middle age...are simply sick and tired of the status quo.
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Re: Unisex Skirts for Children

Postby Caultron » Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:22 pm

Grok wrote:I suspect that many of those who try skirting in middle age...are simply sick and tired of the status quo.

Yes, for me, at least, being a rebel, asserting my individuality, and shocking people is definitely part of the attraction.
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

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