Are We Winning?

[crfriend]

Our efforts may stall.

No. Although the quote is apocryphal, "Failure is not an option."

[Grok]

"Failure is not an option".

Perhaps it will be the Internet that makes the difference, as a catalyst. Letting those otherwise scattered find each other. Like this forum, for example.

[Disaffected.citizen]

Sadly, I think 1. Menswear, 2. Unisex would be more accurate.

I don't follow that...

in the sense that men have to wear menswear, but women can wear anything.

OK, I think I now follow your logic.

My thought is that society considers:
only women wear women's wear, men are "forbidden" from choosing from this side of the aisle; thus anything on the women's side of the aisle is for women only, consequently it is "women's wear"
men only wear men's wear, but women can also choose anything from this side of the aisle; therefore anything on the men's side of the aisle is for both men and women, accordingly it is "unisex".

Whichever way we consider it, the reality is that liberated, free thinking, strong and independent people choose their path and their clothes; the rest are dictated to by social construct.

[crfriend]

Whichever way we consider it, the reality is that liberated, free thinking, strong and independent people choose their path and their clothes; the rest are dictated to by social construct.

This is the distilled essence. The world needs more liberated, free thinking, strong, and independent people.

Face it, guys, we can either win this one or we can lose it -- and if we lose it, we have only ourselves to blame.

[Grok]

To summarize points that have been made before:

1. Women are the gatekeepers of sex...and reproduction.

2. Women generally expect men to conform to traditional masculinity.

3. In Western civilization, skirts are almost entirely identified with females.

4. Therefore, a man in a skirt is feminized-and therefore unacceptable as a mate.

[moonshadow]

As Grok suggested, I think that kilts are becoming more popular. I see them quite often during the summer months out and about.

Regarding regular every day skirts (the type women wear), I'll be frank, I don't really see any major trend outside of the trans group. I think more people out and about view me as a "failed trans-woman" than a "man wearing a skirt". Although, upon a different consideration, I've never been ma'amed, and I'm always "sir'ed" and called by male pronouns even among more progressive friendly people.

Which is fine with me, I am, after all- a guy.

I don't know... I suppose the "we" in "are we winning" would be the general populace who desires personal freedom, whether it's wearing what you want, worshiping as you please, and other lifestyle choices that may be considered taboo by certain people. "We" are part of a bigger group of people, a group generally tolerant of each other and working to make the world a better place for humanity.

In that context "we" are winning.

But as far as "men in skirts" (not including kilts)... I don't think we're going to grow much more than what we currently do. I do believe that more men will identify as other genders that psychologically "allow" them to wear skirts from the women's side of the store. But they won't identify as "men". However remember, not every male who rejects the "man" gender label necessarily jumps to full blown "woman" mode... many are gender fluid, gender queer, gender-less, androgynous, etc.

But "chest beating" men in skirts intended for females? No. To wear some of the stuff that I frankly wear, one has to have a bit of a "feminine bone" about him, yet has to be "man enough" to wear it out in hostile places like the Walmart in Marion VA!

2. Women generally expect men to conform to traditional masculinity.

Boy that really grinds me too! (not you, or the fact you said it... you're right!)
I sit here day after day and study this stuff, I watch social trends regarding men, women, gender, etc, and I notice that so many women want "their man" to look a certain way. Make no mistake, women can be just as sexist as men, the only difference with women is it's condoned, whereas with men it's not.

But while this may be a byproduct of the monster that second wave feminism was, as I've stated in other threads, many modern feminist I run into in the real world (meat space) are generally VERY man in skirt friendly. Which is more than I can say for the standard issue run of the mill honky tonk ass hats that troll these streets regularly.

[crfriend]

To summarize points that have been made before:

1. Women are the gatekeepers of sex...and reproduction.
2. Women generally expect men to conform to traditional masculinity.
3. In Western civilization, skirts are almost entirely identified with females.
4. Therefore, a man in a skirt is feminized-and therefore unacceptable as a mate.

Ah, the power of negative thinking. If we keep thinking the same backwards thoughts as we always have we'll never progress. Free thought is a powerful tool; however, it's not for everybody. This is precisely why it's the "abnormal" who actually effect change in the world -- they have the power (internal) to defy convention, the grace, poise, and humility to lead well, and to nurture free thought in others.

Point by point. One: The world is already overpopulated; if some random woman doesn't want to breed with me then so what. See "bozo filter". Ditto point two. Three: This only afflicts those who cannot think "outside the box" and, hence, are doomed to remain there. Ditto point four.

If we continue to utilise circular logic and dogmatic thinking we will never get ahead. Full stop. "Lead, follow, or get out of the way."

[Daryl]

"Lead, follow, or get out of the way."

Yes.

[STEVIE]

I am!
I wear a skirt more than I wear trousers. The rest of the time is still my choice.
Women are not the enemy, societal and general ignorance is.
I know I don't follow. I know that I'm unique, warts and all.
Lead, I have no idea.
You decide, I would not stand in your way.
Are "WE" winning, yeah!
Look at it as a work in progress.
Steve.

[Grok]

What are people used to? There have been and are cultures in which men traditionally wore one pipe rather than two-both men and women would be/were used to this.

So how do we get people used to men in one pipe?

I think the key is older men. Men who-if they were going to reproduce-have already done so. (In this respect they would under less pressure than younger men). Men who are maverick enough to try something new, at least in terms of attire.

So.... Imagine a group of older iconoclasts. They are very conspicuous because they are willing to experiment with unorthodox clothing.... Imagine further that young men...and young women...get used to the idea of a man wearing one pipe. Because of a bunch of iconoclasts.

Of course, I am talking about a long term process.

[crfriend]

So how do we get people used to men in one pipe?

We lead. We lead by example and by being worthy of emulation.

I think the key is older men. Men who-if they were going to reproduce-have already done so. (In this respect they would under less pressure than younger men). Men who are maverick enough to try something new, at least in terms of attire.

Certainly the demographic here reflects that notion. The question is how to liberate the young man's mind from the mire of "menswear". To be perfectly honest, I haven't the faintest idea of how to do that, but if skirts start getting accepted on older guys I'm all for it because that'll normalise the notion somewhat.

[Grok]

How to comport yourself?:

1. Self confidence!

2. Don't turn yourself into a caricature of masculinity...by trying too hard.

3. Wear your outfit as though its just your ordinary, every day clothes. Nonchalance, in your attitude towards your attire.

[Daryl]

How to comport yourself?

1. Self confidence!

CHECK

2. Don't turn yourself into a caricature of masculinity...by trying too hard.

CHECK

3. Wear your outfit as though its just your ordinary, every day clothes. Nonchalance, in your attitude towards your attire.

CHECK

Okay, now I've filled out your questionnaire...

[Grok]

if skirts start getting accepted on older guys I'm all for it because that'll normalise the notion somewhat.

So we will have demographics that are bifurcated, rather than unbifurcated?

Young men will be expected to wear two pipes...while older men can try something different?

[Grok]

The point here is that we must be normal and reasonable in order to get the whole of the communities we live in to let us live and wear what we want. When we act weird and strange and try to push the issue, that's when the backlash starts. It may not appear that headway is being made but just live and let live and the reasonable ones out there will follow soon enough. Most folks are afraid that when they break the societal norms they will be shunned, by showing that reasonable people just live that barrier can be broken down.

Wearing one pipe is very radical, yet members seem to be interested in putting together outfits that look plausible on a man.