early 20th century parallels?

[boca]

It is often discussed here and everywhere on the internet how the "skirts and kilts" phenomenon among men's fashion is very much akin to the women's trouser movement of the early 20th century.

However, something else struck me as to the flip side of that early 20th century fashion revolution.

Many of the men back then had very differing opinions on that movement. Some men rejoiced, some were like "whatever" and many guys were diametrically opposed to it at first. Those that were completely against it over the years finally became "tolerant" enough to not say anything derogatory about women in trousers, at least not to their face.

It occurred to me that the same wave of reactions is happening among women. Many are fully supportive, some are like "let them do whatever they want" and some say it takes the masculine out of a man. Decades ago, many men said trousers took the feminine out of women.

I know this isn't much of a revelation, but it is amazing to see the parallels of both the revolution and the counter-reactions of the opposite gender, both back then and today!

Today a woman can look very feminine and sexy in pants, shorts, skirts or dresses. Of course many guys think a skirt and dress on a woman makes her look sexier, however they won't complain if a hot lady walks by in pants!

I wonder how many decades it will take for all women to see a "hot guy" in a skirt and still think he's hot, regardless of the clothing? (of course I'm talking about America/Western cultures, Sarongs in East Asia already are common fashion among men over there!)

Decades from now when a "hot guy" walks by a group of women in a skirt or even a "masculine dress", would he be sexier in their eyes than if he were wearing pants? Or, would they still prefer a "hot guy" in pants? How will the cultural view shift?

[Don]

Well, no...

<Many of the men back then had very differing opinions on that movement. Some men rejoiced, some were like "whatever" and many guys were diametrically opposed to it at first.>

I can't remember ANYONE being diametrically opposed! Who would argue with those beautifully rounded hips, Etc...

<It occurred to me that the same wave of reactions is happening among women.>

Again, NO! The source of the resistance to men-in-skirts, IS NOT WOMEN, but rather, OTHER men!

<I wonder how many decades it will take for all women to see a "hot guy" in a skirt and still think he's hot, regardless of the clothing?>

No decades at all!! A hot guy in a skirt is a hot guy in a skirt, all the MORE hot if he's willing to wear one! My experience has been that the world will VERY QUICKLY grasp the concept of a men's skirt, and approve of it! Go ahead and wear one!!!


<I wonder how many decades it will take for all women to see a "hot guy" in a skirt and still think he's hot, regardless of the clothing?>

"Hot" has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the skirts vs. pants issue...

Don
Oakland, NJ

[SkirtedViking]

And do you know who makes men macho monkeys? Who is raising them up like that. Why haven't I seen the situation a mother to tell her little girl: don't do that, it is masculine, do not wear that or whatever? I've seen the opposite done to small boys many times even while I stroll outside.That culture is first imprinted by the mother.One gender has better options for self expression since early childhood, guess who is not giving up on their advantage.Self expression leads to more developed personality and the option to seek your place either in so called masculine or feminine areas of life.As an example if a male has the potential to be good at anything considered feminine he will ridiculed since a child and thus he will lose the ability while women in masculine areas are deeply encouraged. Society is composed of family cells, views are formed first in the family. Macho philosophy serves well women - thus they have the advantage over the opposite gender by telling you that being limited actually is great. If it is so great why don't they have the same limitations? And by the way my girlfriend totally agrees with me, I do not hate women as the first reaction would be by many, just telling you the facts.Some call me masculinist, does not matter.Last night I heard a woman on my table say that males with diadems are ridiculous while she was wearing trousers and masculine flat shoes with laces.Genders must be equal!

[Stevie D]

Last night I heard a woman on my table say that males with diadems are ridiculous.......

Just curious about this statement... what do you mean by 'diadems'? I've always understood a diadem to be a type of crown, especially when ornamented with diamonds. Do you mean a tiara? Unless this is a new aspect of male fashion which I've so far missed, I am unaware that men are wearing tiaras or diadems or crowns (unless a monarch on formal state occasions).

However, a quick bit of googling did turn up this, although I think it was a bit of a one-off:
Men in tiaras

[AMM]

And do you know who makes men macho monkeys? Who is raising them up like that...

In my experience: other boys, with the encouragement of the men in charge of them.

I think this is pretty much the rule in what we call "Western Society." In many families (but not mine), the fathers play a role, too -- my father was unusual in not playing a large role in training me to be appropriately macho.

Here in the USA, we have "natural experiments" that make the role of other boys ("peer groups") quite clear. As an extreme example, we have immigrant communities, where the culture at home is very much the culture of the country the people came from. Up until they go to school, children are raised pretty much as they would have been in the Old Country, often not even speaking any English. At about age 6, they are sent to public school, and within a few years, they have not only learned English, they have adopted the dress, fads, prejudices, and slang of their American peers. In many cases, they reject their parents' culture and language entirely (or as much as they can, since they still depend upon their parents for food and shelter.) Similar studies have shown that even for non-immigrants, the peer-group culture has a stronger effect than the parents' values on what a child does.

Another data point: in those social classes (in the USA) where a willingness to (physically) fight is expected from men, men tell of how, in their youth, older boys (and sometimes men) would set them up in fights with other boys and essentially force them to beat each other until the elders decided they have shown sufficient toughness (cf. also: the US Marines.) Also, over and over I have seen how it is the fathers who encourage their little boys, as young as 1 or 2 years, to be rough and tough, and who get upset if their boys are interested in the wrong things, or cry, or want their mommies.

I have clear memories of the physical and emotional abuse I suffered as a child for failing to act enough like everybody else, and I was not trying to wear a skirt! I was simply very bad at athletics, didn't like fighting, and used big words and talked about things that other kids didn't think boys should talk about. I faced this at private school, public school, day camps and overnight camp. And this all happened with the tacit approval of teachers, coaches, camp counsellors, and school administrators, except for the few (all male) who actively encouraged it. Basically, anyone who fails to fit in, in a Lord of the Flies sort of way, sets himself up to be the designated victim, and this is a widely accepted part of what we call "socialization." (Cf. the movie If.) The fears I face when I walk out of my apartment in a skirt are fears of being treated the way I would certainly have been had I done so as a child. To judge by what other men say here at the Cafe and in Real Life(tm), these are the fears which keep them in line, too. I'm always astonished at how many people say flat out that any man who goes out in public in a skirt will get beaten up -- this makes no sense in an adult context, but it is a perfectly reasonable fear in childhood.

To go a little OT here: the topic of bullying has been in the news here in the USA lately because of some well-publicized suicides, and people always ask why adults aren't able to get a grip on the bullying. To my mind, the answer is obvious: bullying is too important a component of socialization. Just as social pressure is not enough to insure that adults obey the laws, so we need police to deal with the people who don't, and just as dictators cannot rely entirely on propaganda to keep their citizens in line, but also need secret police to eliminate some of those who rebel and terrorize the rest, in the same way, peer pressure is not enough to insure that virtually all children accept the roles that are forced upon them and internalize society's rules as to how they must act, think, and be, you also need bullying (whether by other children or by adults) to make clear to all the cost of stepping out of line.

[SkirtedViking]

In my country women generally raise the children.The father role is in most cases linked to the wisdom of: do not be a sissy and stuff like that. Macho philosophy is just voiced louder by males but is imprinted not by other males as a start.The original source are not males - that is what I tried to imply.About the diadems I meant the plastic thing that keeps hair falling on your face when it is long enough.English is not my mother language so there might be another word and I do not care for sarcastic remarks . In my country even the slightest feminine looking man (pink,thongs, no hairy legs, fancy hairstyle) is ridiculed by women - so how do that help about men in skirts. And do not give me the masculine crap - according to them a skirt is for women only, no matter how macho looking. They do not care about history, that they grandmothers didn't wear what was considered then male apparel - guess what now is in the worse case unisex for them. They just say there are trousers for women and not skirts for men, when a women is wearing something from the men's section of the store - she is just sport type and nothing more. They seem to be afraid that males can look better than them, afraid of competition that according to me is impossible since guys have different body structure.Judging by my experience most women do not want men to look pretty, they strive to keep their advantage by blurring your eyes with the "real man" bul*it. That is my opinion, some people DO agree, some do not.

[Stevie D]

About the diadems I meant the plastic thing that keeps hair falling on your face when it is long enough.English is not my mother language so there might be another word and I do not care for sarcastic remarks .

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't intending to be sarcastic. Sorry if this is how it seemed to you.
The plastic head band you describe is generally known as an 'Alice Band' in the UK - named after original illustrations of what Alice wore in Lewis Carroll's books 'Alice in Wonderland' and 'Through the looking glass'

[boca]

I can't remember ANYONE being diametrically opposed! Who would argue with those beautifully rounded hips, Etc...

I'm referencing 1920s, 30s... not the 60s pantsuits or similar for women. Back in the 20s, etc (probably more in the city then farm country), a woman walking down the street in pants would get many stares. I'm not saying all men were diametrically opposed to it back then, or even that the majority were. I am saying there were some men (and women!) who thought a woman in pants went against the very fabric of what feminine meant back then. To these people, a woman who wasn't scrubbing the kitchen floor, taking care of kids, etc. was an attack on society, and pants were a huge status symbol of freedom from that paradigm back then.

Again, NO! The source of the resistance to men-in-skirts, IS NOT WOMEN, but rather, OTHER men!

Not in my experience. True, MANY women are supportive! However I've also been scoffed at by many women in public, giving me the "crazy dude" look.

No decades at all!! A hot guy in a skirt is a hot guy in a skirt, all the MORE hot if he's willing to wear one! My experience has been that the world will VERY QUICKLY grasp the concept of a men's skirt, and approve of it! Go ahead and wear one!!!

I have, and probably 95% of everyone (men AND women) either ignore it, complement it or just smile. I haven't yet got one bird flipped at me or similar insult.
However, men in skirts or even kilts for that matter hasn't yet permeated our (that is ,USA at least) culture to the CORE. It took a generation or two before women in pants was a no-brainer. Skirts on men today is NOT a no-brainer to the "average Joe or Jane"! I surely wish it were, would give a lot of guys more wardrobe options.

"Hot" has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the skirts vs. pants issue...

This is mostly true. A "hot" woman in pants still looks hot, according to today's "fashion norm". A "hot" guy in a skirt will look "funny" to some women! Many women will be tolerant and many think it will make them look hotter. However, there is still a sizable number of women who would at "first impression" think it was funny and question "why'.

That question "why" is a good thing, and a good sign the culture will shift!

[Since1982]

SkirtedViking, your English is tons better than my "whatever language you were born and raised speaking". That still doesn't mean anyone is going to "walk on eggshells" when chatting with you. If you don't like what's said, remember, we are just men like you and not intentionally "making fun of or being sarcastic" of what you say or how you say it. Calm down and accept what's said as an honest attempt to interact and be understood by you and in exchange, we'll do our best to understand what you say and why you say it. An old saying in the English speaking world is "Live and let live" it works with languages too.

Would you rather have everyone so worried about how you're going to react to what they say, they're afraid to speak to you at all???

[AMM]

In my country women generally raise the children,...

IIRC, you live in Bulgaria, a country I have never been in, so I may be misinformed about how things are done there.

In most of Europe and in all English-speaking countries (and, no doubt, some other countries), when children reach the age of 5 or 6, they spend most of their day in schools, surrounded by other children from other families, and under the authority of adults (teachers and school officials) who are not their parents. They also spend much of the time that they are not in school (and that they are not working on homework) with friends who are close to them in age. During this time, they are not being influenced by their mothers. The teachers and the other children have their own ideas of what is acceptable and what is not, and they do not care what the mothers think.

Is your country different from these countries? Do children stay at home until they are adults? Do they not participate in organized sports teams? Or other youth organizations that are sort of like the Boy Scouts?

My point is that, once children go out into the world, mothers (and fathers) are no longer the main influences.

In my country even the slightest feminine looking man (pink,thongs, no hairy legs, fancy hairstyle) is ridiculed by women - so how do that help about men in skirts.....

My question: how do men in your country react if they see a "feminine looking man"?

[Skirt Chaser]

You are quite right, boca, that there are parallels do be drawn between the two movements. The first one is that it truly is a long road of changing opinions and it never really is over. Prejudices will still pop up and surprise you from time to time. United States Senator Barbara Mikulski from my home state of Maryland encountered the dress code that said no pantsuits on the Senate floor. This was in 1987 and apparently changed sometime in the nineties. I learned that just last week from this article on the history of women and trousers- http://www.wornthrough.com/2010/04/13/w ... -politics/.

Apparently there is a law still on the books in Paris that women may not dress as men. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/fashion/fash ... Paris.html Though unenforced it has remained despite repeated attempts to remove the law because there are people still willing to defend the idea. Women can bump up against this belief socially or at work despite all the progress over time. For example, this advice was given to female lawyers on a blog last month- "We would also caution that just because one judge says pants suits are fine for him does not mean that he is speaking for the entire judiciary — we’ve heard from at least one reader who notes that a local judge has openly expressed his preference for skirt suits." http://corporette.com/2010/04/13/what-n ... bar-style/

The other thing I see in common is that both debates tend to get framed as an attractiveness issue when that is not the point at all. Take this quote for example from a newspaper during World War II- "It seems strange that trousered women can run amok at will, for frankly the sight is criminal and an affront to the senses." http://www.letchworthgc.com/placestovis ... efront.htm Wow. I still can't wrap my head around a man who thought his idea of what a woman should wear should be taken into greater consideration than what she wants to wear. Every woman on the planet could look hideous in pants and every man appear just as unattractive in skirts but that has no bearing on it being a matter of equality that clothing considered acceptable for one gender is appropriate for the other as well. Men should not need to prove they can look good in a skirt to wear one, to me it is only desire to wear skirts that is important. There always will be people that do not find skirts a good look on men and that is fine, no reason they should, but they don't get to stand in the way based on that view.

SkirtedViking, I would hope people would not mock anyone for what they wear, or do, or who they are. Unfortunately that is not the world we live in yet. I would like to point out that it is always easier to see the slights that affect us or the people we know. Those same people who do not approve of your headband or skirt are likely telling their daughters that their hair is too long or some other appearance complaint that is merely opinion. It sounds like you have encountered rude *people* saying rude things rather than women who are cruel only to men.

It will not help you gain female allies to support your skirts when you put the blame on them for the attitudes of your culture. Do talk with women about gender expectations and privilege, it is a good way to help them see the support you need as a skirted man and will also let you know what life is like for them. Complaining that women have all the advantages makes it sound like you do not have an open mind. You wish them to have one about you, isn't it a double standard that you already have your mind made up?

[Don]

Boca wrote:
That question "why" [are you wearing a skirt] is a good thing, and a good sign the culture will shift!

Yes, and the best answer I've found goes something like "The gals get a choice and I don't???". Actually, I've never had to use it, but I'm sure it would silence the radical feminists.

Let's not lose sight of two thoughts...

First, there is a SUBTLE but ENORMOUS distinction between a man wearing a [mens] skirt and a man wearing "womens clothing". The distinction between mens pants and womens pants are pretty clear by this point, and a man wearing womens pants would evoke the same response as a man wearing a womans skirt.

We have never been able to agree on a clear definition of a mens skirt, and this is inhibiting that culture shift. I can only offer my own definitions, and a lot of this is based on personal taste. I do have something of a litmus test, in that a mens skirt is successful if it evokes a reaction something like "Wow, that works... Why didn't we think of it sooner!".

We should also remember that "The clothes don't make the man, the man makes the clothes". An attractive, first-class guy is an attractive, first-class guy, regardless of what he is wearing. If that attractive, first-class guy happens to be wearing a mens skirt, he is telling the world that he has a whole lot of self-confidence, a strong sense of his own masculinity, and a flair for the offbeat. These are the VERY QUALITIES that make a man attractive in the first place, no???

[Since1982]

Actually I had the chance to use a similar line. In my case it was a 40 something lady at Bingo asking me why was I wearing a skirt. I responded with, "You can wear a skirt whenever you please, why shouldn't I be allowed to??? " To which she responded, "Because WE are better than you are and WE SHOULD have more choices than men have, Men are only here to serve us!"...I couldn't think of a thing to say in a room full of women. I mumbled a bit and left...happily Bingo was over for the night.

[JRMILLER]

Don,
Can you describe or show us some photos of your idea of a skirt made for men?

[Don]

Don,
Can you describe or show us some photos of your idea of a skirt made for men?

Sure!!!...

I'd start with the design constraints imposed by nature...

There's the obvious hip-waist-length ratios that are different for men and women. A woman's body is shaped like an hourglass, so she has those beautiful flairing hips which make a perfect mounting platform for a wide variety of skirts. A man's body is shaped like a triangle, broadest at the shoulders and narrowest at the ankles, i.e. no mounting platform! Accordingly, the mounting systems now used in men's pants - belt loops, suspenders, Etc. - will have to be included on the men's skirt.

Observe, also, that the plumbing found in the mens room is somewhat different from that found in the ladies room! It would seem to me that a men's skirt would have to be compatible with that plumbing, and here we're talking something like a zipper fly! Observe that it's VERY DIFFICULT to buy a pair of mens pants that doesn't have belt loops and a zipper fly, and when you can, it's usually some kind of sportswear (sweatsuit, swimsuit, Etc.).

From this point forward, the arguments get a little fuzzier. Some men are reluctant to use handbags, so some kind of pockets would have to be provided. With a woman's skirt, this is more of an option. I've always thought that slapped-on pockets interrupt the beautiful, graceful, hang of the skirt, so this is a tailors challenge. A small, concealed, minimum capacity pocket might work well with a long men's skirt.

What about length? I wear shorts all summer, but not anywhere to which I want to be anything other that fully casual. In my mind, the men's skirt makes a powerful statement, anything but casual, and as such, my ideal mens skirt is ankle length. I have no problem showing off my legs, but I'm not gonna shave them, nor am I gonna wear anyting like panty-hose, which are surely VERY UNCOMFORTABLE on a hot summer day.

I like a very conservative, understated, subdued look, and so the colors and fabric choices for a men's skirt reflect those generally available for mens pants. Subtle earth-tones, rich fabrics, Etc. are the order of the day. I'm not sure about prints, but butterflies and birds and flowers are out. If a men's skirt must be a print, make it Budweiser, Jack Daniels, and NFL logos.

There are a couple of things on womens skirts that are clearly quite femme, and I'm curious how they would translate to a mens skirt. One of these is a gold chain instead of a belt (which would very probably work). I find hip-high, panty-peekaboo vents and slits to be OUTRAGEOUSLY SEXY, but they would almost certainly NOT work on a mens skirt.

In the commercial world, I found the original Anders-Landiger (nee Men-In-Time) skirts to be pretty close to the aesthetic ideal, particularly the old Wednesday and Casablanca models. I have a couple of these, and as gorgeous as they are, they cannot get off the runway. I cannot for the life of me figure out how to use a standup urinal while wearing the Casablanca model!

The upshot of all of this is that "skirtsmanship" is a VERY SUBTLE art! Do it skillfully, and you will have a HUGE and POSITIVE impact. Do it poorly, and you're gonna look stupid! Unfortunately, we've never been able to come up with a definition of what "skillfully" means! Shame on us!!!...