Clinching Argument

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
Grok
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Grok »

As I recall, a few members have tried to persuade skeptical wives by pointing out that men in various cultures have worn skirt like garments.

Unfortunately, I understand that this is an unconvincing argument to some wives, who reacted in an emotional manner.
Nanny91
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Nanny91 »

mishawakaskirt wrote:
> Apparently you have to be a gladiator to wear a skirt.
LOL :lol: Why just don't let them wear they want :roll:
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Sinned
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Sinned »

Grok, my wife comes into that category. I can't even tempt her into reading or seeing articles about men wearing skirts. Her reaction is purely emotional about me being seen out in a skirt.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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skirtingtoday
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by skirtingtoday »

My Mrs too is very emotional about me in a skirt. She has a panic attack which isn't good at all.
I have thought about the argument that if I'm not allowed to wear a skirt, she shouldn't be allowed to wear trousers.
Don't see it getting me very far other than getting a black eye though! :| :pirat:
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Fred in Skirts
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Fred in Skirts »

skirtingtoday wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:41 pm
My Mrs too is very emotional about me in a skirt. She has a panic attack which isn't good at all.
I have thought about the argument that if I'm not allowed to wear a skirt, she shouldn't be allowed to wear trousers.
Don't see it getting me very far other than getting a black eye though! :| :pirat:
It may be more than a black eye, She might put a large dent in the back of your skull with a frying pan.. :rofl: :rofl: :hide:
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Sinned
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Sinned »

I've tried the trouser, or in her case leggings, argument but she argues that they aren't men's - they are designed for women as are skirts, despite my protestations. Mine strew, after many wearings and washings they are a rather horribly shapeless garment when not being worn. I'd not be seen dead in them. But a nice skirt ....
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
Faldaguy
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Faldaguy »

I'd still like to see a thread dedicated to the arguments used to persuade others that clothes are not gendered, and perhaps the success or failure of those arguments -- maybe we need to list them and have members vote on the utility?

Anyway, the one I've found that seems to be most generally accepted is: Why shouldn't men have as much fashion freedom as women? It takes something of the "personal" out of it, and makes the question more of a philosophical challenge of equality that is hard to reject without giving some thought and reasoning to the answer.
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Sinned
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Re: Clinching Argument

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I think that I've tried the "women can wear anything including a bin liner or men's clothes designed for men, purchased from the men's department and nothing is said [0] but if a man wears ONE female garment then he is bullied, shamed and vilified for doing so" argument and IIRC has had no effect. I may try it again in a period of calm debate but I'm not hopeful of success.

[0] Well, maybe any comments would be more positive than negative, if anything is said at all.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
Faldaguy
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Re: Clinching Argument

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by Sinned » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:11 am

I think that I've tried the "women can wear anything including a bin liner or men's clothes designed for men, purchased from the men's department and nothing is said [0] but if a man wears ONE female garment then he is bullied, shamed and vilified for doing so" argument and IIRC has had no effect.
Maybe we need to get Stu or Anthony in on this one -- as I think the semantics in your question above, may bring a very different response, than the phrasing I suggested [Why shouldn't men have as much fashion freedom as women?] -- and in either case, it needs to be presented in a tone that is a genuine inquiry, a seeking of information -- NOT as a challenge, comparison, or critique.
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Stu
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Re: Clinching Argument

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""women can wear anything including a bin liner or men's clothes designed for men, purchased from the men's department and nothing is said [0] but if a man wears ONE female garment then he is bullied, shamed and vilified for doing so"
That is a true statement so far as I can see. A woman can wear almost anything and it is seen as enhancing her femininity - even if she wore builders' overalls and a hard hat like a construction worker. I think the exceptions may be either where her style is such as to suggest she has abandoned femininity altogether, as some lesbians do, or where she adopts religious garb, whether as a nun or in a burkha. For a man, feminine items are strictly off-limits and that even comes down to something as innocent as a scarf.

Some years ago, my wife bought a pair of trousers when in the Netherlands only to find they were way too big. They had an elasticated waits at the back and she suggested I tried them. I did, and they fit me fine and made a handy pair of trousers for casual wear - dog-walking etc. Nobody would have known they were women's trousers - although the pockets were next to useless. Meanwhile, I gave her a fleece jacket that I had been bought by my in-laws but I decided I didn't like as it was sort of a fuchsia colour that I thought looked a bit too girly for macho Stu and she also wore that for dog-walking. We joked at the time that we were a pair of crossdressers.

I am not a "gender-blender" - I think males and females should look different from one another and viva la difference! However, this principle is often taken to extremes especially when it comes to males, almost as if me donning anything that might have a female connotation will result in eternal shame and damnation. We need to be rational. We need to make a bit of space between the masculine/feminine dyadic and allow more things to fall into that space. We have already started that process with colours, whereby pink is less of a taboo for males than it used to be. I think childrenswear is another area where there is massive scope for easing up and let's see the Taiwan example (where skirts really are worn by boys as well as girls) spread to the West.
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Sinned
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Re: Clinching Argument

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Stu, this is where the situation enters a whole new realm of complexity, at least in my case. My wife is fine with me wearing outside other "feminine" garments such as T-shirts, vests but the limit is just reached with spaghetti strap tops. Other garments such as jeans - stretch, bright colours, red, purple, yellow - tights, jumpers, jackets are fine as long as not too extreme. Not all "feminine" garments are out of bounds. So your statement, "For a man, feminine items are strictly off-limits and that even comes down to something as innocent as a scarf." isn't strictly true. I've seen other men wearing an item or two of women's wear but not dresses or skirts.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
Dust
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Dust »

Sinned wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:46 pm
Not all "feminine" garments are out of bounds. So your statement, "For a man, feminine items are strictly off-limits and that even comes down to something as innocent as a scarf." isn't strictly true. I've seen other men wearing an item or two of women's wear but not dresses or skirts.
I think this is where male-marketed skirts come in, no matter if we wear them or not. So long as people know such things exist, some people will accept items from across the isle no matter where they came from if they believe that such a thing exists as a male-marketed item.

Scarves exist. Men wear them. Therefore, a somewhat feminine scarf may get a pass. Likewise skinny jeans or leggings. They are made for men, so ones worn by men, no matter the source, will get more acceptance. A skirt that may look slightly kilt like will sometimes get this pass as well, maybe because it has pleats or is a plaid fabric.

This is why I find all the celebrity and couture stories of men's skirts encouraging. If it becomes well known that men's skirts exist, any skirt will get more of a pass from society at large, and even from individual women who's opinions matter to us.
tbryant2k12
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by tbryant2k12 »

It mostly comes down to females are seen as inferior to males. And any male who wears female clothes is seen inferior or trying to make males inferior. The real reason why men started wearing pants was due to war. Think one countries army that wore the traditional tunic garments was defeated by another army that wore pants.

In the end, the resistance is to protect "Manliness", that alpha male syndrome.
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Stevej180 »

Stu wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:09 pm
I successfully challenged this idea on an online debate recently. My interlocutor came out with the circular argument I described - males don't wear skirts because they don't. "OK", I said, "You like drinking beer, right" Yes. Suppose it became so unfashionable for males to drink beer, that the beverage became regarded as a female-only beverage and, as such, consuming it was seen as an expression of femininity. Would you (a) conform and cease drinking beer? Or (b) challenge the taboo and drink what you like - i.e. beer? That seemed to be a clinching argument that stumped him.

Does anyone have any similar arguments to share?
I actually think this is more apt than perhaps you first realised. I’m 50, and I can recall in my 20s that if I went to a pub with a group of guys, you each had a beer. You couldn’t ask for a G&T because that was a girl’s drink. If I had, I would have been ridiculed. I might have got away with a Vodka and Coke, but not a G&T. Fast forward 30 years and no-one bats an eyelid when I ask for a G&T, or a cocktail, or whatever. Drinks have lost all gender connotations as far as I can see, but they definitely existed 30 years ago.

Hopefully, skirts etc. will lose their gender connotations over the next 30 years, just as jeans and trainers have done.
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Re: Clinching Argument

Post by Big and Bashful »

Hmmm, gendered drinks? I remember a series of adverts on British TV, after a woman asks for a babycham, a big butch ultra-masculine deep voiced black guy, says, in his deep, ultra masculine voice, "Hey, I'd love a babycham".
I don't think the campaign worked, I don't think I have ever seen the stuff, although I only go to places with decent ale and don't do cocktails etc. so maybe it is there but I just haven't looked in the "right" place. If it still exists I assume it is still just a drink for the ladies!

Well would you look at that- here it is, https://youtu.be/MshadyDLjnk
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