Had skirts for men always been - what then?

[ChristopherJ]

I have never really heard where pants/trousers came from other than the Turks started wearing some sort of trousers for horse-riding.

By what I have read, I understand that trousers - as we know them today - came to be commonly worn as a fashion item after the French Revolution (c. 1800). Apparently the French peasants wore a sort of trouser before the revolution when they were working in the fields - as it was a good garment to wear for such work. The wealthier men up until then had worn elaborate dresses (in the form of tunics), skirts and hosiery (which had developed into upper hose and lower hose - essentially, breeches and stockings).

After the revolution, it was deemed sensible (if you wanted to keep your head on your shoulders) to show support for the working class - and wealthy people did this by adopting 'working class' costume - in particular - trousers. They first became everyday wear in France and this spread to England and then most of Europe etc.

The Victorians chose black as a staple 'colour'. So we have ended up with the common working costume today in many Western countries of a black or dark grey suit. Oh joy.

[Sarongman]

Re trousers, the Turks weren't the first, The Mongol horsemen wore trousered clothing and-- I've just looked up "The Roman War Machine" to see trousered Roman cavalry. These were auxiliary forces, possibly Gaulish. You wouldn't expect any self respecting Roman citizen to wear something so outlandish do you?

[DavidsSkirts]

With horse riding dating back to pre-Mongol times (maybe more than 7,000 years ago - unless you're a literal creationist, in which case you probably just dropped off this thread - it could be argued that wearing pants for specific purposes dates back at least that far). Pants weren't invented specifically for horseriding, but were adapted from loose dressy pants-like garments that were womens' garb at the time.

Men wearing skirts, sarongs and skirt-like garments never disappeared from much of the world - only from some western civilisations around 200 - 300 years ago...

Homosexuality and transvestism - as mentioned by a couple of earlier posters here - has absolutely no connection with wearing skirts or kilts..
More likely, this misplacing and displacing of labels says more about those ignorant people in our western cultures who see something strange or different, and try to make it fit into their own narrow, limited and bigoted view of the world.
(As such, it makes a bit of a nonsense of the original question, as well, doesn't it - as others have pointed out before me, also..).

[ChristopherJ]

Just for the record . . .

Having today spent a whole day in the British Museum, I could not pass this thread without posting this.

Civilization (i.e. life in cities) began in Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq basically) about 5,000 plus years ago. They have left us some records including the 'Standard of Ur' - which is a story in pictures.

http://tinyurl.com/2tp96n

Now - look at the pictures - what are all the guys wearing.

Yes - skirts.

This is from 2,500BC. MIS has been around for a looooooooooong time!

More info about it here:

http://tinyurl.com/35ayxb

[imadube]

Let me change the direction of this thread closer to what was on my mind.
As the questioned behaviors have been around for many many years, this does not discount what I really was asking. So lets try this:
I have noticed here and other places like this that many men looking into fashion freedom at one time or other (some seem to currently still) "pretended" to be female so as to wear such garments as skirts in public. Now, I would like for a very honest self testing here of those of you that did/do so - IF we as men had never stopped wearing skirts in whichever culture you are in, would your lifestyle still had wanted to be thought of as the other gender?
Several of you are /had used female names, had there never been a "ban" on male skirts (anywhere in the world, as in always common place wear for men) would you still had chosen to use a females name?

It is that, even though these practices have been always around, a culture's expectations has so much to do with our mental make up that in a true and honest study I contend that it would be found that the number of these "crossover" personalities would have a real decrease in numbers had ALL cultures retained skirts and dress like items for men.

[BrotherTailor]

Good post ChristopherJ.

As my username would indicate, I'm one of those Religious neanderthals. Hence, my library is chock full of dull tomes that I actually read and use for preparing presentations, articles, etc. One fact that is plain is that both men and women wore tunic-like garments from the dawn of time all through recorded history. I have a huge illustrated encyclopaedia covering the day-to-day life of each biblical era, like a thousand pages. In every era the writers go into great stone cold sober detail explaining how the men and women wore their dresses. tunics, skirts, etc. The ways they indicated their rank, their family association, their status, etc. In the whole book there is never a picture or description of a man wearing trousers...

I think a "dress" or tunic for men is doable. For colder weather it would need to be worn with "leggings" like thermal longjohns, and I think the old fashioned leather "gaiter" type leggings that once were worn around the lower legs by British farm workers etc would be a manly touch. I've got a book with pictures showing men out working in the fields with leather leggings tied on to protect against moisture/abrasion. If worn with say brown thick longjohns and a manly looking tunic with a leather belt, and maybe a hood, it would be acceptable in time.

I think imadube brings up a good point that has made all of us revisit this whole area. I think all of us know at some point that we are different, it is how we cope with these feelings and allow them to shape and direct the way we live that makes us who we are to some extent.

As a horse rider (not lately but I still have horses on my farm) a kilt is just fine for riding. I've never tried it, but I'm sure that with the pleats it would be very easy and just as comfy as bloody jeans or breeches.