skirtcafe.org

I came across this interesting video about gender identity and only you can define who you are.

https://youtu.be/lS2MzCkgt4Y?si=T3-Aenz0Y1iPRa2g

Great video DRF.

He seems a bit confused on a number of fronts. The first is that he claims he liked dresses as a child because he liked the way they felt when wearing them and the attractive colours but was humiliated and stopped wearing them. OK - but that has nothing to do with gender identity and everything to do with western fashion at this point in history. Why can't a boy enjoy the feelings and colours of dresses as a boy? There is nothing innately feminine about dresses and many cultures have similar garments which are for men. He goes on about "the patriarchy" which really is an inane idea these days in western countries. Women not only have equality, in some ways they have special benefits that males don't enjoy and that starts as early as primary schools where education is by women and designed around girls. As for women working harder, maybe in his field but I worked for half a century and that's not my perception - gender doesn't enter into it.

Final point. I agree that each individual can identify as the wish, whether it's about gender or anything else and that's absolutely fine. But it doesn't mean other people have to buy into (affirm?) other people's claimed identities, especially where it is evidently delusional. I am not a 12 year old Native American girl, or a Klingon warrior, or a slice of cheddar cheese and, no matter how much I believed myself to be one, I would not be one and I cannot demand others regard me as such.

Stu wrote: ↑Mon Aug 11, 2025 8:31 am Final point. I agree that each individual can identify as the wish, whether it's about gender or anything else and that's absolutely fine. But it doesn't mean other people have to buy into (affirm?) other people's claimed identities, especially where it is evidently delusional. I am not a 12 year old Native American girl, or a Klingon warrior, or a slice of cheddar cheese and, no matter how much I believed myself to be one, I would not be one and I cannot demand others regard me as such.

Ok Stu, but a question?
What harm does it do YOU to simply go along with the other person's wishes/request/beliefs/foibles/delusions?
Steve.

STEVIE wrote: ↑Mon Aug 11, 2025 9:57 amWhat harm does it do YOU to simply go along with the other person's wishes/request/beliefs/foibles/delusions?

What happens, then, when their desired perception flies in the face of reality? Are we to deny reality?

I may identify as a walrus, but I know damn well I'm not, and have no right to expect others to view me as a walrus either. I'm growing extremely tired of the world of make-believe. The madness needs to stop somewhere.

STEVIE wrote: ↑Mon Aug 11, 2025 9:57 am Ok Stu, but a question?
What harm does it do YOU to simply go along with the other person's wishes/request/beliefs/foibles/delusions?
Steve.

None, Steve, but it should be wholly my decision.

And how far do we take this? If I am showering in my gym and the bearded bloke next to me who has full male anatomy tells me he is a baby girl, do I really have to play along with that?

Nahhh

Stu

Stu wrote: ↑Mon Aug 11, 2025 8:31 am [snip] education is by women and designed around girls.[snip]

Can you clarify that Stu? I think you're probably correct that a majority of teachers are female but AIUI that's not by design. My understanding is that less men are attracted to the role/vocation for whatever reasons.

As for examples of people claiming they're a slice of cheese or a walrus - please! We're grown-ups here - please stop using stupid attempts at analogy. There is evidence in trans people from MRI scans etc that the "biology" of their brains and bodies are in conflict. Let's just have some grace and respect for people who would almost certainly choose a simpler "cis" life if they didn't feel the way they do.

There was a group of people who did not fit in with gender norms. They were forced into one of two lines, they didn't get a choice which line to join, because other people said so. In your line you were only given limited choices because that was right.

Then a few brave soles stood up and said the two lines didn't work for them and the world accepted that. Another group decided to take the mickey and another group decided to attack them because they felt threatened.

We played along because we don't like change. Balance was restored, for a while at least.

In the mean time (while we argued in the playground) another group stole everything from us and everything we will ever have.

MrSoapsud wrote: ↑Mon Aug 11, 2025 3:08 pm
Can you clarify that Stu? I think you're probably correct that a majority of teachers are female but AIUI that's not by design. My understanding is that less men are attracted to the role/vocation for whatever reasons.

I am not berating the fact that more women are teachers. I am simply observing that teaching at the younger end is a profession dominated by women and has been feminised and, to some extent, this means it is geared up better to enable girls to succeed. Masculine traits are often suppressed, regarded as bad behaviour. Tests and exams are now more designed as continual assessment rather than end-term examination and it is known that girls perform better with this approach.

MrSoapsud wrote: ↑Mon Aug 11, 2025 3:08 pm
As for examples of people claiming they're a slice of cheese or a walrus - please! We're grown-ups here - please stop using stupid attempts at analogy. There is evidence in trans people from MRI scans etc that the "biology" of their brains and bodies are in conflict. Let's just have some grace and respect for people who would almost certainly choose a simpler "cis" life if they didn't feel the way they do.

You have missed the point. I know the slice of cheese analogy is absurd: that was intentional. I was pointing out that, taking the subjective idea that we should be regarded as what we claim to be and ignoring objective reality becomes absurd at its extreme extent. If we can demand people affirm us and refer to us as the opposite sex just because we tell them that's how we want to be regarded, where is the end point for that? Can I demand to be considered a Samurai warrior? A reincarnated Medieval saint? A child? You say: "There is evidence in trans people from MRI scans etc that the "biology" of their brains and bodies are in conflict" - but that area is not settled science. The idea that trans people have brain structures that align with their gender identity rather than their sex assigned at birth is an active area of research and the scientific community doesn't have a definitive consensus yet. It may be the case that research has established a correlation between brain structure and transgender identity, but it has not definitively proven that these brain differences are the cause of being trans so far as I am aware.

One more point. Unlike some critical individuals, I acknowledge that sex is about more than just biology - both in terms of physical body characteristics and at the genetic/chromosomal level. The physical reality is also connected to the psychology of the individual and their own perceptions, the social and cultural climate - and even the law has a role. I don't demand to see evidence that someone has a vagina, or XX chromosomes, to accept them as female. If they give me some of the signifiers that's how they perceive themselves, and avoid ambiguity or contrary signifiers (like beards, for instance), then I am happy to register them mentally as female.

I'd like to know your source for the claim that

early as primary schools where education is by women and designed around girls

.

as most of the research I've ever seen in a variety of peer review publications show that girls learn best in an all girls setting but boys learn best in a mixed setting.

I don't know about where you are, but most schools here are mixed and therefore not designed around a girl's best interests but a boy's.

Stu wrote: ↑Mon Aug 11, 2025 5:47 pm I am not berating the fact that more women are teachers. I am simply observing that teaching at the younger end is a profession dominated by women and has been feminised and, to some extent, this means it is geared up better to enable girls to succeed. Masculine traits are often suppressed, regarded as bad behaviour. Tests and exams are now more designed as continual assessment rather than end-term examination and it is known that girls perform better with this approach.

Masculine traits like beating up other pupils? (Although I understand girls are quite good at this too??)
I think the general perception is that continual assessment is a fairer and more accurate way of assessing learning than the traditional method of cramming for an exam.

Stu wrote: ↑Mon Aug 11, 2025 5:47 pm You have missed the point. I know the slice of cheese analogy is absurd: that was intentional. I was pointing out that, taking the subjective idea that we should be regarded as what we claim to be and ignoring objective reality becomes absurd at its extreme extent. If we can demand people affirm us and refer to us as the opposite sex just because we tell them that's how we want to be regarded, where is the end point for that? Can I demand to be considered a Samurai warrior? A reincarnated Medieval saint? A child? You say: "There is evidence in trans people from MRI scans etc that the "biology" of their brains and bodies are in conflict" - but that area is not settled science. The idea that trans people have brain structures that align with their gender identity rather than their sex assigned at birth is an active area of research and the scientific community doesn't have a definitive consensus yet. It may be the case that research has established a correlation between brain structure and transgender identity, but it has not definitively proven that these brain differences are the cause of being trans so far as I am aware.

You're still using absurd examples.
I just said there is evidence, not conclusive proof. In any case, the brains of so-called biological males and females differ widely.

Stu wrote: ↑Mon Aug 11, 2025 5:47 pm One more point. Unlike some critical individuals, I acknowledge that sex is about more than just biology - both in terms of physical body characteristics and at the genetic/chromosomal level. The physical reality is also connected to the psychology of the individual and their own perceptions, the social and cultural climate - and even the law has a role. I don't demand to see evidence that someone has a vagina, or XX chromosomes, to accept them as female. If they give me some of the signifiers that's how they perceive themselves, and avoid ambiguity or contrary signifiers (like beards, for instance), then I am happy to register them mentally as female.

Sadly, following the Supreme Court ruling, some men (I think mainly men) have taken it upon themselves to police women's facilities to the extent that they've challenged some cis women for not looking enough like women!
However, I've remembered that you won't change your mind and demand the right not to respect individuals. "I'm out"

MrSoapsud wrote: ↑Tue Aug 12, 2025 9:10 am
Masculine traits like beating up other pupils? (Although I understand girls are quite good at this too??)
I think the general perception is that continual assessment is a fairer and more accurate way of assessing learning than the traditional method of cramming for an exam.

I wasn't thinking of violence. Masculine traits include things like fortitude, resilience, protectiveness, competitiveness.

I spent years teaching adults and I found out quite a bit about how people learn. Males in particular seem better able to cope with learning by exposure + intensive reinforcement. Females seem better at piecemeal learning in chunks. They are both fair and effective.

MrSoapsud wrote: ↑Tue Aug 12, 2025 9:10 am
You're still using absurd examples.
I just said there is evidence, not conclusive proof. In any case, the brains of so-called biological males and females differ widely.

I would remind you of the Reductio Ad Absurdum (Reduction to Absurdity). This is a classic logical argument, widely used and entirely valid. It works by assuming a proposition is true and then showing that this assumption leads to a ridiculous or impossible conclusion. If the conclusion is absurd, the initial proposition must be false.

Your claim that biological males' and females' brains differ widely is also not settled science and is disputed by some in the field. For example: https://www.u-tokyo.ac.jp/focus/en/feat ... 00017.html

MrSoapsud wrote: ↑Tue Aug 12, 2025 9:10 am
Sadly, following the Supreme Court ruling, some men (I think mainly men) have taken it upon themselves to police women's facilities to the extent that they've challenged some cis women for not looking enough like women!
However, I've remembered that you won't change your mind and demand the right not to respect individuals. "I'm out"

I'm not sure how that relates to me or what I said.