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Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:07 pm
by Yonkas
For a while, now, I have increasingly taken issue with referring to males, who do things seen as traditionally female activities, as "embracing their feminine side." I believe that this is harmful to our cause.
The only reason these things are considered female-related in the first place is due to a quirk of history. We we all know, there is nothing inherently female about donning a skirt, or putting on makeup. And we can point to many examples of males "prettying themselves up" as "acceptable male behavior" throughout history (and geography) as evidence. So, "femininity" is subjective.
And yet, I would argue that the majority of behaviors we associate with femininity can be characterized objectively. For example, when we think of femininity, the words, "nurturing", and "soft" come to mind.
Thus, the point of this post is to try to work out how we might replace "Embracing femininity" with something more appropriate.
I believe a good place to begin is to identify what comprises "femininity".
Indeed, I believe that femininity is not a monolithic concept, but, really a collection of at least the following loosely related aesthetics:
1) Ornamentation over practicality
Examples:
- Bows
- frills
- Jewelry
- Functionless buttons
- Burdensome features, like hoop skirts
- Colorful Patterns
- Shiny fabrics
2) Softness
Examples:
- Pastel color schemes
- Soft/smooth fabrics
- Sheer fabrics
3) Sensuality
Examples:
- Soft/smooth fabrics
- Flowy sleeves, or hems
- Textures
- Clothing gathering like pleating, ruching, or fluting
- Variation of textures (such as organza sleeves with a silk bodice)
- Layering
4) Celebration or enhancement of body shape
Examples:
- Tops that flare at the hips
- Tops that emphasize the chest area
- Outfits that enhance, or create a specific body shape, like "hourglass" or "rectangular".
- Miniskirts that "reveal leg".
- Tights/leggings
5) Affirmation of sexuality
Examples:
- "fancy" underwear that nobody but you and your significant other will ever see
- Clothing that enhances secondary sexual characteristics
- Sensual clothing meant to enhance the feeling of sexiness
Notice how none of the above categories, nor any their respective examples happen to be inherently female (notice, also, that unbifurcated garments peculiarly don't show up at all in the above list. Hmmmm....)
So, why should we call them, "feminine"?
So, instead of saying that a man, who dresses in ways consistent with the above aesthetics is embracing his "feminine" side, what can we do?
For my part, I am unsure. Perhaps a new word is in order. Might we be able to construct an appropriate word from latin, or greek roots that might suffice?
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:44 pm
by Barleymower
Yonkas, I agree.
However I don't think you can make any material changes to something so deep seated by changing a word. We must do something, so what do we do.
The answer is nothing. You have to accept that nothing you actively do will make a blind bit of difference if you bash you head against it.
Change is happening. It will take time. Go out there, look good, look confident. Someone else will see you without you knowing and think: "l want that, **** it I'm going for it" and then there will be 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 etc.
Sometime in the future there will be no masculine no feminine, just people.
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:35 pm
by JohnH
When I put on a dress and heels, along with nail varnish and makeup, I don't embrace femininity. Likewise when I cook or sew, I don't embrace femininity. The attire part is simply what I want to do as John and not some fictitious name such as Johanna. And the cooking and sewing are necessities.
John
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 10:31 pm
by Coder
JohnH wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:35 pm
When I put on a dress and heels, along with nail varnish and makeup, I don't embrace femininity. Likewise when I cook or sew, I don't embrace femininity.
I think the bigger problem is people associate those things with femininity - when really they ought not to.
Yonkas wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:07 pm
For a while, now, I have increasingly taken issue with referring to males, who do things seen as traditionally female activities, as "embracing their feminine side." I believe that this is harmful to our cause.
...
So, instead of saying that a man, who dresses in ways consistent with the above aesthetics is embracing his "feminine" side, what can we do?
For my part, I am unsure. Perhaps a new word is in order. Might we be able to construct an appropriate word from latin, or greek roots that might suffice?
Words are tricky, and usually what people come up with are cringe-worthy and feel forced and unnatural. I find the idea of going back to latin/greek intriguing, as usually names are "man-something" - laughably bad. Maybe there is some origin word we could use.
As to your first point - "embracing a feminine side" I agree. It feels patronizing to talk that way, it reinforces stereotypes, and makes me roll my eyes.
However, at the same time I think we shouldn't be afraid of being feminine or being seen as feminine - it's a small step in smashing stereotypes and accepting that being "male" isn't the default. I think this latter attitude is different from actively saying you are doing something feminine... but I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:02 am
by crfriend
Coder wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 10:31 pm[...]I think we shouldn't be afraid of being feminine or being seen as feminine - it's a small step in smashing stereotypes and accepting that being "male" isn't the default. I think this latter attitude is different from actively saying you are doing something feminine... but I'd appreciate your thoughts.
This notion I can get on board with. In a world where everything seems to be gravitating to the "macho", "femininity" is rapidly becoming obsolete and is disappearing from the wild. I feel this should be stopped, if for no other reason than that's where a whole lot of aesthetics, sensitivity, empathy, and emotions lie -- and we sacrifice those things at a very high price indeed.
Imagine a world without beauty, without empathy, and without compassion exist -- for that's where we seem to be going. And it hurts -- at least for this old boy -- to see those go.
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:58 am
by Coder
crfriend wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:02 am
Imagine a world without beauty, without empathy, and without compassion exist -- for that's where we seem to be going. And it hurts -- at least for this old boy -- to see those go.
And I think that's what we have to all question: why are those things considered feminine? And if they are intrinsically feminine - which is a notion I think we should challenge - why do men have to reject them for machismo? Because a woman embodies those things?
I occasionally wonder if that's really reality.
I've met men - even macho men - with empathy, with compassion. I feel like a lot of men put up a front where they act in ways to "prove" their manliness but it's not really them - they are just playing a role to appease other men. But they'd just as easily show these traits we lament are missing - but there's a social code of being tough.
Then again... I don't travel in a lot of circles, don't go out much, and my worldview is shaped by my coworkers and family mostly. I could be dead wrong on this.
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:08 am
by Modoc
It requires quite a bit of thought and vigilance to free oneself from the pattern of thinking that requires so many things to be labeled and boxed in so many different ways. The Idea of masculine and feminine can be very pervasive even in everyday speech in some languages. Attempting to learn a little Portuguese in an effort to be prepared for an upcoming move reminded me just how ingrained those ideas are in some languages. Not to say that those divisions don't exist in other languages, but that in the language we speak every day, we are less likely to recognize them as such.
My current partner keeps me on my toes if I say something like girls instead of women or females or mankind instead of humankind and vice versa. Clothes can definitely be described without the use of gendered nouns, but old habits die hard. Words are key to how we think, and the conscience effort to address that can help bring change.
I am not necessarily advocating for a gender-free society, but wouldn't it be great if every aspect wasn't subject to such a strict need for gender association?
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 9:39 am
by Mouse
Yonkas wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:07 pm
For a while, now, I have increasingly taken issue with referring to males, who do things seen as traditionally female activities, as "embracing their feminine side." I believe that this is harmful to our cause.
I see this in the same way that we used to say of a girl who liked to wear trousers "she is a tom boy". This has largely died out by most women doing and wearing male things now days. I think the same thing is happening in reverse. No way is cooking seen as feminine any more with people such as Gordon Ramsey charging around in the kitchen. My own son in his twenties loves to cook and is very good at it, his girlfriend loves that he cooks. Lots of men have embraced the colour pink. Many men now use skin and hair products in the same volume that women do. Some men now get manicures. Things are changing and the feminine/masculine devision is defiantly softening.
We are all part of this and the more we show ourselves in public and the workplace the more things will change to what we would like. I don't think there is anything stopping us living as we please, certainly in my part of the world. (UK)
Below is picture of me taking over various feminine things as a man and a father, in a north London pub where I was having lunch with my daughter, who took the picture. I am surrounded by many others people in the pub who could be thinking anything of me, I have no control over their thoughts. However, nobody said anything to me derogatory, I didn't hide away, I went to the coffee station and the gents. I had a long conversation with the door staff over the price of Guinness, since it was the St. Patrick's Day weekend. I had a very enjoyable lunch with my daughter in a totally normal way.
For the record the "feminine" things I was taking for me were. Latex skirt, leotard, earrings, septum ring, nail polish, stockings, 4" wedge boots, corset belt, shiny puffy jacket and a blue handbag. All things either made my me or bought by me for me as a man. Looking back at the list, some of the things on there are already not thought as feminine by the younger generations. When I started wearing nail polish, I asked my son about it and he was like I was behind the curve. He already knew male friends that wore nail polish! Men wearing earrings and septum rings are common now. I think the younger generations are much more flexible in what a man can do and wear.
Location, Wetherspoons, Woodgreen, London, March 2024.
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 2:07 pm
by denimini
A person breaking away from conventional Western gendered stereotypes could say "I have decided to be me for a change".
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 3:05 pm
by Grok
Yonkas wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:07 pm
Notice how none of the above categories, nor any their respective examples happen to be inherently female (notice, also, that unbifurcated garments peculiarly don't show up at all in the above list. Hmmmm....)
In some non-Western there have been other conventions as applied to men. In the context of that culture, for example, certain open ended garments are traditional mens wear. Or certain versions of jewelry are deemed appropriate for men, as another.
Which hints at a possible future in terms of personal expression for Western men.
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 3:07 pm
by JohnH
If a woman puts on a flannel shirt and jeans, changes the oil in her car, or paints her house, is she embracing masculinity? Of course not. So the idea of men embracing femininity needs to be buried and forgotten.
John
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 3:18 pm
by crfriend
Coder wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:58 am
crfriend wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:02 am
Imagine a world without beauty, without empathy, and without compassion exist -- for that's where we seem to be going. And it hurts -- at least for this old boy -- to see those go.
And I think that's what we have to all question: why are those things considered feminine? And if they are intrinsically feminine - which is a notion I think we should challenge - why do men have to reject them for machismo? Because a woman embodies those things?
Indeed we should be questioning that -- very loudly and in public -- for it's going to be key to our rights in the future. Men have been systematically marginalised in many places for decades, and part of the way that's being done is for "masculinity" to redefined as "machismo" which clears the decks for the women to take over space that men once occupied. What's hilarious is that women are falling for the same tactic, and are inching to the "macho" spot themselves -- which is going to cause a world of grief going forward.
Imagine the hilarity (or tragedy) of a macho woman who tries to get her sensitive affectionate boyfriend to "butch up" -- or the modern male who is insufficiently homosexual to be attracted to macho women.
I occasionally wonder if that's really reality.
It is. I fall into the second scenario in my argument above, and have fallen into the first as well.
I've met men - even macho men - with empathy, with compassion. I feel like a lot of men put up a front where they act in ways to "prove" their manliness but it's not really them - they are just playing a role to appease other men. But they'd just as easily show these traits we lament are missing - but there's a social code of being tough.
Indeed, and that's a very bit part of the problem.
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 3:59 pm
by rivegauche
I am one of a minority on this site who present as women occasionally as well as a man in a skirt/dress. At no point to identify as a woman and I do not feel I am embracing any femininity because I don't have any. I am acting. That's all. I share this exasperation with any adoption by men of anything traditionally associated with women as embracing our feminine side. Most of us don't have such a side to embrace no matter how we might present.
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 5:18 pm
by moonshadow
denimini wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 2:07 pm
A person breaking away from conventional Western gendered stereotypes could say "I have decided to be me for a change".
+1
Say it louder for those in the back of the room.
It seems that once you boil it all down, what's "masculine" and what's "feminine" appear to be set by local social customs, are somewhat arbitrary, and a bit of a moving target. A century ago the lines were more clearly defined, today however those lines are blurred to the point of being almost invisible in many cases.
Though I seldom see a guy in a skirt, I see effeminate guys all of the time. Some probably don't even realize they are coming off in such a way. Likewise I see masculine women everywhere (I'd argue most women are masculine by traditional standards).
These words (masculine and feminine) seem to be mostly useful in attempting to describe something or someone, but it does seem that neither sex has a hold on either one.
Despite the bickering and back-biting we see promoted by a media and "leaders" that profit off of social division, I personally think we're in a pretty good place.
Yeah, the haters and naysayers are louder than ever.... but they are only screaming because the world is changing....
...and there ain't a damn thing they can do about it, and they know it.
These folks can get over it or die miserable.
Re: Doing away with "Embracing feminity"
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 8:17 pm
by Ozdelights
moonshadow wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 5:18 pm
denimini wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 2:07 pm
A person breaking away from conventional Western gendered stereotypes could say "I have decided to be me for a change".
+1
Say it louder for those in the back of the room.
What we should be aiming for.