And this is still part of the problem..

[steamman]

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/enough-men- ... es-2919194

No mention of skirts, but you can see by reading this that there is still sadly a long way to go for 99.5% of males.

[crfriend]

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/enough-men- ... es-2919194

Paywall.

[geron]

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/enough-men- ... es-2919194

Paywall.

Not a pay wall, I think, but a geo-wall -- I can read it OK where I am.

This must be the Greg James who presents what sounds like a history programme for 11-year-olds on BBC Radio 4, Saturday mornings.

[Mouse]

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/enough-men- ... es-2919194

Paywall.

I get a paywall too.

[crfriend]

Not a pay wall, I think, but a geo-wall -- I can read it OK where I am.

That may be, I just know that the page was obliterated by a demand for a paid "subscription" and I couldn't read it without resorting to browser-trickery.

This must be the Greg James who presents what sounds like a history programme for 11-year-olds on BBC Radio 4, Saturday mornings.

That may be so (I can't say), but he hits a few high points in the piece, not least of which is that men spend way too much time policing each other on style choices -- and that really needs to stop before there will be real progress in this endeavour. "Let individuals be individuals" ought to be the mantra.

[Uncle Al]

I was able to open the link, so far.
Have to run an errand so, will read it later

Uncle Al

[STEVIE]

I'm hitting the paywall too, but if the gist is that men are curtailing men's fashion freedom, then it's nothing new to me.
In the main, any detractors that I have encountered have been of the male persuasion.
There have been some women, but they are rare enough to make it surprising, men on the other hand, the default is be prepared.
Many men appear to be hidebound by homogeny, the team, the gang, the pack the uniform.
Their default is to discourage diversity and non conformity so that "others" are recognisable and treated accordingly.
Fact is that I was aware of this more than fifty years ago and I don't believe that conditions are much better for a young male these days either.
There is one consolation, back then no one acknowledged the problem so there wasn't one to deal with.
We have a start by just being aware, but as for tackling and solving it who knows?
Wear the whatever, fly the flag, show the possibilities and if we are spared the time, maybe?
Steve.

[familyman34]

Not a pay wall, I think, but a geo-wall -- I can read it OK where I am.

That may be, I just know that the page was obliterated by a demand for a paid "subscription" and I couldn't read it without resorting to browser-trickery.

This must be the Greg James who presents what sounds like a history programme for 11-year-olds on BBC Radio 4, Saturday mornings.

That may be so (I can't say), but he hits a few high points in the piece, not least of which is that men spend way too much time policing each other on style choices -- and that really needs to stop before there will be real progress in this endeavour. "Let individuals be individuals" ought to be the mantra.

Here's the text for those who get hit by the paywall/subscription demand:

Opinion
By Greg James
I’ve had enough of men taking the piss out of each other’s clothes
Men still feel most comfortable slinging insults at each other
February 29, 2024 11:18 am(Updated March 1, 2024 10:20 am)
I’ve met brilliant people through work who have steered me in the right direction and given me the confidence to try new things (Photo by Dave J Hogan/Getty Images)
‘I’ve met brilliant people through work who have steered me in the right direction and given me the confidence to try new things’ (Photo: Dave J Hogan/Getty Images)

I’m laid up at home feeling ill while writing this, which makes me grumpy, so bear with me if it sounds like a rant. But… can we please stop “male clothes banter”? If you’re taking the rip out of what someone wears in 2024, you are old and boring – and the joke you think you’re making might actually be damaging too.

I grew up in 90s/Noughties south-east England. The dynamic triple threat of Bromley, Epping and then Bishop’s Stortford. Every teenage boy dressed the same – not because we wanted to, but because you would get the piss mercilessly ripped out of you if you stepped out of line and tried something different. I remember some prick bullying me for wearing sunglasses he had decided he didn’t agree with. This stuff sticks with you for years. It only serves to keep everyone looking the same, unable to express themselves because they know they will become the butt of a million jokes.

When I was growing up, there was very little colour in men’s fashion, no experimentation, and you weren’t allowed to be interested in clothes or shopping. If you showed you cared about these things, you were told you were “gay” or “girly”. It not only affected how I dressed in my teenage years and my twenties, it skewed my attitude to other people’s clothes too. I had been conditioned to judge people for dressing flamboyantly, daringly, for stepping out of line in any way.

Of course, things have moved on a bit. There are loads of teenagers who seem much happier to wear whatever they want. Harry Styles dons high-waisted trousers and pearls and looks f**king amazing. But there are still a hell of a lot of men wearing monochrome leisurewear who feel like it’s their duty to keep everyone else in check.

To see this attitude still prevalent in 2024 and magnified by social media is thoroughly depressing. It happens in sport a lot – a world run by and full of repressed men who grew up in a time when you weren’t allowed to explore your full personality. I was watching cricket the other day and former England captain Alastair Cook dared to wear a shirt with what is sometimes known as a “camp collar” (I concede, the name isn’t massively helpful here). He looked great in it. You wouldn’t blink twice if Jacob Elordi wore it in an interview but for some reason, in macho-land where the norm is wearing ill-fitting suits, it was deemed ripe for mockery.

A camp collar shirt is one with a wide, open collar that sits flat against the chest. The shirt Cook had on was black silk, and of course a load of boring banter bastards on X (formerly Twitter) started piling on saying he’d accidentally turned up in his pyjamas. “HE’S WEARING PYJAMAS ON TELLY! WHAT A BELLEND! HAHAHAHAHA! IMAGINE! THAT’S WHAT YOU WEAR IN BED! IDIOT!” His fellow pundit Steven Finn (a brilliant man) even got caught up in it, joining the pile on and tweeting a photo of him sat next to Cook.

My heart sank because it’s lame, but also triggering. I’ve been Steven Finn before, and felt the pressure to join in, but I’ve also been Alastair Cook. In fact, it happens quite a lot with some of the things I wear. You just have to laugh it off because it’s even more uncool to have a sense of humour failure in lad world, but actually you want to tell everyone to f**k off.

We live in a world where men in navy zip-up Partridge sports fleeces gleefully criticise someone else’s sartorial choices in order to feel better about themselves. Safe clothes are seen as just that: safe. You blend into the crowd and no one bullies you. I’ve worn the acceptable uniform; I still do every now and then. Nothing wrong with a decent navy tee or the odd crew-neck jumper. But not every day. Try some new things out if you want to!

I sometimes feel like a lot of blokes now dress as though they are about to make a surprise appearance on the Diary of a CEO podcast. It’s just a new uniform for us to blend in. We’re all at adult school wearing our high performance podcast uniform, waiting to do a presentation. A bunch of sad digital sheep shuffling around wearing black bicep-hugging T-shirts with smart watches strapped to our wrists which tell us if our hearts are still on, loaded up with an app that reminds us to have another shot of Huel. It’s a capitalist costume which allows for no individual expression, no joy, no outliers.

We can stop this! But we must act. I became much more confident with my clothes when I realised I feel much happier wearing things I love instead of just wearing things to cover my body and go unnoticed.

I was conditioned to think it was embarrassing to like or even be interested in clothes. My job has helped me immensely. I’ve met brilliant people through work who have steered me in the right direction and given me the confidence to try new things. I often work with an amazing stylist called Tom Stubbs who essentially changed my life and showed me I could push things a bit more. You should all follow him on Instagram immediately by the way. The coolest man on earth. But it shouldn’t be that hard to break the convention. You shouldn’t need a stylist to help you discover new things about yourself.

Marrying Bella really helped too. She is the best dressed person I know. But even that makes me sad. It took me over 30 years and marriage to explore colour. “Here I am! A married masculine man finally comfortable enough to wear a pink jumper.” Pathetic.

All of this is really just another sign that men don’t communicate in the healthiest of ways. For all the talk about how we should open up and be more vulnerable, we still feel most comfortable slinging insults at each other. I’ve noticed how women go out of their way to compliment other women who wear something different, bigging each other up for stepping outside the lines. Maybe one day we’ll get there but right now, we’re not even close. As soon as I wore my favourite pink jumper on telly, I got a message on Instagram asking me why I was wearing my wife’s clothes. Sigh.

Pop on some high-waisted trousers, get yourself a colourful chunky knit and free yourself from the fleece.

Greg James presents BBC Radio 1’s breakfast show

[STEVIE]

This must be the Greg James who presents what sounds like a history programme for 11-year-olds on BBC Radio 4, Saturday mornings.

"Greg James presents BBC Radio 1’s breakfast show"
The R4 Greg James is a historian who wrote the Horrible History series for kids and he also hosts a podcast series "You're Dead to Me".
The adult one takes a lighter/serious look at history for adults and features an expert on a given topic with a guest stand up comedian for the witty remarks.
Men's Fashion, would be a good topic for this Greg James.
As to that article, the guy could have lifted it from a lot of the posts right here.
One point to take from it is that clothing freedom is not all about skirts and dresses being acceptable as menswear, it is a damn sight deeper, less superficial than that.
Nothing bad, nothing new, but if it sparks thought and chatter, no harm either.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

I feel like I've sat across the table from James, drank a load of beers and discussed the whole sorry state of affairs.
Men are not only allowing this to happen to them, they are actively participating in crushing our own spirit.

I said on another thread (woefully ignored ) this:

"The problem may be how men are seen in society, how society treats men and how society values men"

I'll add now "how we value ourselves, how we we value other men". I would go so far as saying that we are beginning to be seen as nothing more that a resource. It's up us to change who and what we are.

[Myopic Bookworm]

I posted the article on Facebook. A female friend replied saying that women can be as bad when it comes to ridiculing fashion choices: she was continually mocked by office colleagues for wearing what she liked instead of conforming to the -- much broader but still restrictive (and age-ist) -- female business dress code. (I don't know what she was wearing, but I know she's a heavy metal fan.)

[crfriend]

"The problem may be how men are seen in society, how society treats men and how society values men"

I'll add now "how we value ourselves, how we we value other men". I would go so far as saying that we are beginning to be seen as nothing more that a resource. It's up us to change who and what we are.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."

[Barleymower]

I posted the article on Facebook. A female friend replied saying that women can be as bad when it comes to ridiculing fashion choices: she was continually mocked by office colleagues for wearing what she liked instead of conforming to the -- much broader but still restrictive (and age-ist) -- female business dress code. (I don't know what she was wearing, but I know she's a heavy metal fan.)

MB my wife also has had lots of concerns with dress. Business code as you say attracts the most criticism. The most criticism is however reserved for over weight women.

It doesn't even come close though to the general view of a man who steps outside of accepted norms. That's a whole different situation. We have to recognise that and stand up for ourselves. I know you stand up for yourself but we need more like you. Lots more.

[Mouse]

I think in general that both male and female can be very nasty to each other and to the other side in clothing choices. We as a race need to give each other more space to be them selves and to be far less judging. I think this is helped by those of us that can, going about the world in full view and being confident about our choice.
It was interesting, one of my clients, who goes around the place in full religious setup, commented to me in a long chat about why I was wearing a skirt. That people like me, allowed more space in the world for people like him and his like. I took this as a huge positive that crazy me might help not just other MIS, but others into other choices of dress. I think to be fair that working in London, you see so many people out there expressing them selves, that there is quite a bit space already.

[Barleymower]

That's the trouble isn't it. People say these things, think it's funny, walk off and think no more of it. The affected person feels a bit/lot humiliated/ostracised and they don't do it again. Small action - big affect.

London is a great place. I feel totally at home in a skirt. People chat and treat you like there's nothing different about you. I've chatted to people about the state of macdonalds ice cream, kids scooters, directions to museums. One man asked my wife at the national portrait galley: "why is your husband wearing a skirt? Is he Scottish?". On the other hand MIS are still a rarity.