Single Sex Spaces

[Stu]

This morning, I visited a local gym. After my workout, I returned to the changing and sauna area intending to take a shower, get dressed and leave, only to see that a young female cleaner was in there cleaning the washbasins and mirrors. I asked her how long she was going to take as I wanted to shower and change. She just replied in an indifferent voice that I should ignore her presence and carry on. WHAT? I did no such thing. I found a toilet cubicle and changed in that - then left. Incensed by this, I phoned up the gym when I got home and asked to speak to the manager, but was only able to talk to a supervisor. I was told that the only male cleaner had left and they were intending to put up a sign to warn patrols that male and female cleaners may be present in the changing areas, but they hadn't got around to that yet. When I expressed dissatisfaction with this, the supervisor told me that the cleaners and other staff "had seen it all before" and weren't bothered about naked bodies. I replied that they might not be bothered, but I am, and I ended the call. Somehow, I can't imagine them being so sanguine about a male cleaner working in the female changing area.

I have seen similar signs to the ones mentioned applying to public toilets, especially in motorway service areas. On the one hand, we are being told that males shouldn't be entering female spaces yet, on the other hand, female cleaners in men's toilets is absolutely fine. Double standards?

[Modoc]

Stu, you asked if this was an example of double standards and the answer is of course it is. It's been geneally assumed that males are somewhat perverted and that their presence in females private areas was taboo. On the other hand females are assumed to be non affected and therefore safe in males private areas. The likelihood of a male working in a female area while it was in use would surely be cause for outrage while the converse is not likely to raise more than a few eyebrows. I have experienced it and personally don't care as long as my personal space is being respected. I know that it probably makes many guys uncomfortable and women would not stand for it at all.
I have been in a couple of public restrooms where that were designed for mixed use and had multiple stalls and a common area where both men and women washed their hands together. I live in a large metro area but there are still a lot of social conservatives around and I have yet to hear of any pushback or complaints.

[pelmut]

I first came across unsegregated toilets in Belgium in the 1980s, it was no big deal and it makes sense for a number of good reasons. I have had intimate medical examinations and procedures performed by male and female doctors, without the slightest qualms -- and most other men and women have too. I have had two jobs which involved working in men's and women's toilets -- again it was no big deal.

You seem to be suggesting that it is generally accepted for men to be upset by women toilet cleaners or vice-versa, in my experience (and apparently that of the management of your local gym) it is rather unusual these days.

[Stu]

I know some men are not bothered about being seen naked by women - but many are and I certainly am. I would choose a male doctor if I had an intimate problem. Maybe my response is a bit less common these days, but that doesn't invalidate it and there are other man like me. I know many guys who would recoil in embarrassment if a female stranger walked in while they were showering.

The trans debate has raised the issue of women's spaces and keeping men out. That's exactly how I feel about men's toilets, changing rooms, saunas and showers.

[pelmut]

[...]
The trans debate has raised the issue of women's spaces and keeping men out. That's exactly how I feel about men's toilets, changing rooms, saunas and showers.

That has been ignored for far too long, women aren't the only ones who can feel embarrassed. ...but the 'trans debate' has been stoked up by a group of trans-haters preying on women's fear of being attacked by someone more physically powerful than themselves -- that is a different thing from embarrassment.

The answer to your particular situation is individual changing, showering or toilet cubicles - which could be provided for very little more outlay than communal changing rooms (with a few larger ones for parents with children). They don't need to be segregated by sex or gender, or hair colour or skin colour or age or anything else.

[Stu]

The answer to your particular situation is individual changing, showering or toilet cubicles - which could be provided for very little more outlay than communal changing rooms (with a few larger ones for parents with children). They don't need to be segregated by sex or gender, or hair colour or skin colour or age or anything else.

Yes, individual changing etc cubicles are the optimum alternative, so everyone can enjoy privacy.

The attitude towards this does seem to vary across countries and cultures. A male former colleague told me of him being in the Netherlands some years ago and, having been swimming in a Center Parcs resort, he had taken a shower in the male changing area and had barely finishing dressing when a group of smartly-dressed people barged in and started speaking in Dutch and pointing to things. Among them was a young woman who with a camera around her neck who, he said, seemed to be taking notes. Only moments before, he was naked and yet she was among a group that marched in without so much as a knock. Not acceptable! I seriously doubt that would have happened in the women's changing area.

It bothered him a bit - it would have bothered me a lot! Hopefully, that wouldn't happen in the UK.

[rode_kater]

The attitude towards this does seem to vary across countries and cultures. A male former colleague told me of him being in the Netherlands some years ago and, having been swimming in a Center Parcs resort, he had taken a shower in the male changing area and had barely finishing dressing when a group of smartly-dressed people barged in and started speaking in Dutch and pointing to things. Among them was a young woman who with a camera around her neck who, he said, seemed to be taking notes. Only moments before, he was naked and yet she was among a group that marched in without so much as a knock. Not acceptable! I seriously doubt that would have happened in the women's changing area.

Yeah, that's probably a good example of cultural difference. Sounds quite typically Dutch actually. If you're running a swimming pool you've got a builder coming around to make a quote, you're not going to tiptoe around everywhere. You've got a building to cover and they probably don't even see the people anymore. Just pick the quietest period and go for it. If you're worried about that kind of thing, change while facing the wall. Though most places have cubicals which I always use.

I wouldn't bet on the same thing not happening in the women's area. Like pelmut says, most larger areas are aimed at parents with children anyway, both sexes (otherwise a single parent with multiple children has a problem).

[Modoc]

The public saunas' in the Netherlands are mostly coed though they do offer hours for those who don't want to be in mixed-gender settings. the attached showers are usually mixed-use as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna_in_ ... 20Flanders.
So it's all a matter of personal preference and depends on what each individual is comfortable with. A lot like skirting, in my opinion.

[Faldaguy]

This morning, I visited a local gym. After my workout, I returned to the changing and sauna area intending to take a shower, get dressed and leave, only to see that a young female cleaner was in there cleaning the washbasins and mirrors. I asked her how long she was going to take as I wanted to shower and change. She just replied in an indifferent voice that I should ignore her presence and carry on. WHAT? I did no such thing. I found a toilet cubicle and changed in that - then left. Incensed by this, I phoned up the gym when I got home and asked to speak to the manager, but was only able to talk to a supervisor. I was told that the only male cleaner had left and they were intending to put up a sign to warn patrols that male and female cleaners may be present in the changing areas, but they hadn't got around to that yet. When I expressed dissatisfaction with this, the supervisor told me that the cleaners and other staff "had seen it all before" and weren't bothered about naked bodies. I replied that they might not be bothered, but I am, and I ended the call. Somehow, I can't imagine them being so sanguine about a male cleaner working in the female changing area.

I have seen similar signs to the ones mentioned applying to public toilets, especially in motorway service areas. On the one hand, we are being told that males shouldn't be entering female spaces yet, on the other hand, female cleaners in men's toilets is absolutely fine. Double standards?

Stu, I have no idea how this ties in with MIS's. But, just to toss a a little 'bombette' into a topic that I think needs consideration-- but on another site: Why all the fuss about gender divided rooms period -- I suspect a huge number of our crazy problems and notions would be resolved if we all simply accepted the human body in all its forms regardless of gender -- no need for separate rooms or attire!

[Barleymower]

Why all the fuss about gender divided rooms period -- I suspect a huge number of our crazy problems and notions would be resolved if we all simply accepted the human body in all its forms regardless of gender -- no need for separate rooms or attire!

There's a water slide park in my home town. It only has one large changing room for everyone with cubicles. Noone ever makes a fuss.

[happykilt]

... to see that a young female cleaner was in there cleaning the washbasins and mirrors...

Been like that here since I can remember (from about 1970) and I never thought it might be a problem for anyone.

[STEVIE]

I suspect a huge number of our crazy problems and notions would be resolved if we all simply accepted the human body in all its forms regardless of gender -- no need for separate rooms or attire!

Gee Faldaguy, I wonder where the human race would be without crazy problems and notions?

Noone ever makes a fuss.

Someone has or will, it's in our genes, see above.

I never thought it might be a problem for anyone.

Us Brits are a very strange people HK.

Steve.

[Stu]

Stu, I have no idea how this ties in with MIS's. But, just to toss a a little 'bombette' into a topic that I think needs consideration-- but on another site: Why all the fuss about gender divided rooms period -- I suspect a huge number of our crazy problems and notions would be resolved if we all simply accepted the human body in all its forms regardless of gender -- no need for separate rooms or attire!

I put this under Off Topic - where we are told the content is to be: "Non-fashion, non-skirt, non-gender discussions."

I appreciate there is a naturist view where mixed nakedness is the norm and unremarkable, but most of us aren't naturists and do not wish to be.

Been like that here since I can remember (from about 1970) and I never thought it might be a problem for anyone.

I have never had the privilege of visiting Finland, bit I have lived in Sweden and taught many Finnish students. From what I know about Finland, there is a more relaxed attitude towards such things than in many other countries, especially the UK and US. I alluded to the cultural differences in an earlier post. But yes, there are these differences and, when we are seeing feminists in particular insisting on keeping males (including trans women) our of "women-only spaces", then I think we guys have a right to demand the same consideration.

[pelmut]

[...]
I appreciate there is a naturist view where mixed nakedness is the norm and unremarkable, but most of us aren't naturists and do not wish to be.

It is unfortunate that, seen from one point of view, finding mixed nakedness to be unremarkable is seen as an 'ism' which brands someone as part of a movement. The other point of view sees avoidance of mixed nakedness as over-sensitivity which brands someone as part of a 'nanny' culture. Neither is true, they are just two ends of a natural spectrum.

[Modoc]

But yes, there are these differences and, when we are seeing feminists in particular insisting on keeping males (including trans women) our of "women-only spaces", then I think we guys have a right to demand the same consideration.

Stu, I would never argue that anyone should just accept things that make them uncomfortable and not make their protests known. And yes, guys do have the right to demand considerations, and when those aren't met in particular situations, hopefully, we can find situations where those considerations are met.