skirtcafe.org

https://www.indiatimes.com/lifestyle/ev ... 22226.html

Ah, it's a "meh" article. Doesn't say much, conflates wearing skirts with identity a bit. Not necessarily recommended, but something to read if you are bored.

Coder wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 4:52 am Ah, it's a "meh" article.

Hi Coder,
Meh, so what, you may say, but only from a certain perspective, ours.
The article speaks of historical gender fluid dress codes in Indian culture which I find very interesting.
Historical western garments like the kilt were men only in the extreme.
Now, as I type this, I am wearing a kilted skirt, tights and ankle bootees, meh, so what?
For me that is correct, but my say 15 year old self would never have dared to go out in public thus attired, no matter how much he may have wished to.
Perhaps, if I, and others like me, had read such things 50 years ago men in skirts would be unremarkable today.
Sadly, there are still countless numbers of boys not much better off today to whom this may lend hope and encouragement.
Not quite so "meh" from that perspective.
Steve.
Am I getting less cynical?

STEVIE wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:23 pm

Coder wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 4:52 am Ah, it's a "meh" article.

Hi Coder,
Meh, so what, you may say, but only from a certain perspective, ours.
The article speaks of historical gender fluid dress codes in Indian culture which I find very interesting.

That's true - I found that portion interesting. As with a lot of western articles, though, I tend to be skeptical when journalists relay historical fact - they often get things wrong. Taking the article at its word, however, it would seem Indian culture would be more receptive than western society, perhaps were it not for British colonialism (if I understood that part right).

The meh part I was referring to was the usual "identity" gobbledygook. Like, can't clothes just be clothes?

STEVIE wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:23 pm Am I getting less cynical?

I'm a bit worried, actually

I'm probably wrong and I'm happy to corrected but know this much, India is a highly patriarchal society with strict moral values, a place where sexuality is rarely discussed.
I think in times gone by, if a man in India wanted to wear a saree. He would need to join the hijra?

Now Indian society is saying men are starting to enjoy sarees with no mention of Hijra:

https://glamwiz.com/blogs/news/why-sare ... -loving-it

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 4:24 pm I'm probably wrong and I'm happy to corrected

Hi BM,
I don't know enough about Indian culture to correct you, but I will offer this from personal experience.
From a purely cultural/racial perspective people from the Indian sub-continent have always treated my skirts and dresses with the utmost courtesy and respect. In fact, on a general basis, they are amongst the most likely to pay how I am dressed no attention at all or be the most complimentary too.
The compliments will also arise in equal measure from males and females.
Obviously, that's just my experience and how it would be within the society, a wholly different matter.
Steve.

I'm in danger of crossing racial prejudice lines which is not intended.
My point was, in India wearing a saree was only by women and Hijra. That has changed now. All over the world attitudes are changing and gender barriers are being broken down. GOOD!

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:40 pmI'm in danger of crossing racial prejudice lines which is not intended.
My point was, in India wearing a saree was only by women and Hijra. That has changed now. All over the world attitudes are changing and gender barriers are being broken down. GOOD!

I can state flatly that I could not care less about culture on the subcontinent. I have way too many problems with the folks from there being here and causing problems in professional settings.

Second, it's not about "gender" it's about "style", The two are not directly connected. Precisely the only connection between them is a cultural one, and that's what needs to be overcome.

crfriend wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:59 pm

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:40 pmI'm in danger of crossing racial prejudice lines which is not intended.
My point was, in India wearing a saree was only by women and Hijra. That has changed now. All over the world attitudes are changing and gender barriers are being broken down. GOOD!

I can state flatly that I could not care less about culture on the subcontinent. I have way too many problems with the folks from there being here and causing problems in professional settings.

Second, it's not about "gender" it's about "style", The two are not directly connected. Precisely the only connection between them is a cultural one, and that's what needs to be overcome.

Although I understand your sentiment Carl, i'm
Not seeing how gender and style can be separated. A man's decision to wear something not associated with his gender is his own decision and nobody has the right to pronounce judgements based on what he wears. However these prejudices exist whether we like it or not. Eradicate prejudice and the problem facing men is gone. On that basis I want the cultural connection overcome too.

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:11 pmNot seeing how gender and style can be separated. A man's decision to wear something not associated with his gender is his own decision and nobody has the right to pronounce judgements based on what he wears.

Contemplate for a moment a culture in which there never was a vast distinction in attire between men and women. In such a hypothetical environment, the style prejudice would not exist, for it couldn't. Similarly for a culture in which one sex wasn't considered "superior" to the other.

Should we not be striving for equality? Face it, our culture is rather sick at the moment and needs one heck of a lot of work and TLC.

crfriend wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:15 am

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:11 pmNot seeing how gender and style can be separated. A man's decision to wear something not associated with his gender is his own decision and nobody has the right to pronounce judgements based on what he wears.

Contemplate for a moment a culture in which there never was a vast distinction in attire between men and women. In such a hypothetical environment, the style prejudice would not exist, for it couldn't. Similarly for a culture in which one sex wasn't considered "superior" to the other.

Should we not be striving for equality? Face it, our culture is rather sick at the moment and needs one heck of a lot of work and TLC.

Agreed.
Our society is rather like an alcoholic. Doing the same destructive thing over and over. It's beyond TLC.

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:23 amOur society is rather like an alcoholic. Doing the same destructive thing over and over. It's beyond TLC.

I'll assert a negative on the last part of that statement. Rather, that we've lost the concept of what TLC is -- which is vastly worse.

I recall a very turbulent time growing up, but in which there was always a hopeful aspect. Today, all the hope has been driven into oblivion, and without hope humans find themselves completely rudderless. It's been done to us; it's not something we've done on our own -- and it cuts to the root of so many of the horrid and awful things we encounter every day now.

What one wears hardly even counts in the face of abject hopelessness.

So these men in India are akin to members? Come to think of it...wasn't there a Skirt Cafe thread about saris?

Grok wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 1:57 am So these men in India are akin to members? Come to think of it...wasn't there a Skirt Cafe thread about saris?

As of late there have been a lot of articles pertaining to MIS coming from India (as far as, articles written in english that make it to my radar), though as with western journalism, their articles conflate style with gender all too often.

crfriend wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:39 am

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:23 amOur society is rather like an alcoholic. Doing the same destructive thing over and over. It's beyond TLC.

I'll assert a negative on the last part of that statement. Rather, that we've lost the concept of what TLC is -- which is vastly worse.

I recall a very turbulent time growing up, but in which there was always a hopeful aspect. Today, all the hope has been driven into oblivion, and without hope humans find themselves completely rudderless. It's been done to us; it's not something we've done on our own -- and it cuts to the root of so many of the horrid and awful things we encounter every day now.

What one wears hardly even counts in the face of abject hopelessness.

Life is a great leveller. It will all come good, eventually.

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 8:28 am

crfriend wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:39 am

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:23 amOur society is rather like an alcoholic. Doing the same destructive thing over and over. It's beyond TLC.

I'll assert a negative on the last part of that statement. Rather, that we've lost the concept of what TLC is -- which is vastly worse.

I recall a very turbulent time growing up, but in which there was always a hopeful aspect. Today, all the hope has been driven into oblivion, and without hope humans find themselves completely rudderless. It's been done to us; it's not something we've done on our own -- and it cuts to the root of so many of the horrid and awful things we encounter every day now.

What one wears hardly even counts in the face of abject hopelessness.

Life is a great leveller. It will all come good, eventually.

Doubtful. We can certainly go backwards. And it has happened far too often.