"freedom. Society and only society will provide the answer, not those of us who are asking the question."

[timemeddler]

Could just be a coincidence? That stuff is hot button politics these days. I might post something like that myself, doesn't have to be about attire.

[STEVIE]

That stuff is hot button politics these days. I might post something like that myself, doesn't have to be about attire.

The whole point of a question is to get an answer TM.
If your sole motivation is to use it to push a "hot button", are you a politician?
BTW, the answer is 42, what's the "hot button" which leads to that magic number?
Steve

[Myopic Bookworm]

BTW, the answer is 42, what's the "hot button" which leads to that magic number?
Steve

What is the ideal number of skirts that a man should have in his wardrobe?

[timemeddler]

That stuff is hot button politics these days. I might post something like that myself, doesn't have to be about attire.

The whole point of a question is to get an answer TM.
If your sole motivation is to use it to push a "hot button", are you a politician?
BTW, the answer is 42, what's the "hot button" which leads to that magic number?
Steve

eh?

[Dust]

"Pretend he's a woman" refers to a view of transexuals. It does not relate to men who wear skirts.

This.

The whole trans thing is entirely different from men in skirts (as men), which is what this place is (supposed to be) about. The fact that so many here don't get the difference is, quite frankly, depressing...

[moonshadow]

I've noticed a bit of an anti-trans sentiment even here in the PNW... pretty much the people I work with, which is not surprising, people in maintenance and craftsman trades tend to lean conservative.

I've resolved to simply change the subject when it comes up. Ultimately what people do and how they live their lives is none of my business.

God knows I ain't no Saint, and I have no business casting the first stone.

As for my own situation, I've grown weary of constantly arguing with people about the contents of my own heart and soul, as if a complete stranger knows me better than I know myself.

My advice to transgender people everywhere is to simply "be yourself", and try to stay out of the way of those who may cause trouble.

The world is what it is, and I've never met a person that didn't know everything, nor have I ever seen a mind change. But much I know for sure, we all have an average of 80 years to roll around this rock, which is in no way guaranteed. Choose your battles wisely, and try not to cast pearls before swine.

Live your life, be free, f--k the haters.

[KiltedBigWave]

When people see me, they know I am playing for the girl's team!

That's perfectly fine Jamie as you present as you wish.
However, a skirt or even clothes in general give no absolute indication of the wearers preferred shade of gender.
The rigid concepts of "team" are what caused me so many problems as a kid and continue to hamper freedom for men and boys today.
There is no girl or boy's team, we are all in this together whether we like it or not.
Steve.

Steve, I could not agree more. Skirt or clothes in general should give no indication of the wearers preferred shade of gender.

[Freedomforall]

He's 60 Stevie. Macho. Ex jockey. All three cousins are macho. One motorcycle champion. One Royal Marine commando with three tours of Northern Island under his belt (he is actually the nicest of the three).
Not a surprise really as their Dad was also a jockey, very macho with a very tough conservative mum.

Interesting that all are macho. I worked at a photo lab in the early 90's. I was in the print room and it allowed me to view a lot of the pictures that came through. I can tell you there were a lot of bizarre pictures. There were the women with various vegetables.etc. Some of the ones that struck me were men dressed in clothing traditionally considered womens. It was unusual to me because many of them would also dress up in their military uniforms on the same roll of film. I found it a peculiar juxtaposition. I bet not many people in the lives of these people knew of their dressing habits.

[Barleymower]

Interesting that all are macho. I worked at a photo lab in the early 90's. I was in the print room and it allowed me to view a lot of the pictures that came through. I can tell you there were a lot of bizarre pictures. There were the women with various vegetables.etc. Some of the ones that struck me were men dressed in clothing traditionally considered womens. It was unusual to me because many of them would also dress up in their military uniforms on the same roll of film. I found it a peculiar juxtaposition.

Interesting? Men who are tormented by their own natural desires can be the most macho. It makes sense doesnt it?

FFL I've not been the best in the past myself. I stopped wearing my sisters skirts on the quiet at home when my mum and dad found out. They asked me if I wanted ro be a girl.
50 tormented years later, I had laughed along with the rest of the lads. Not like your experience, that's horrific. I just kept a low profile. It wasn't until my own daughter said she is non binary and my youngest son wanted to wear skirts that I changed my mind.
I tried to stop them both, to save them from the bullying. Then I thought 'what am I doing?' Now we muddle along, it isn't perfect but it is real.
I have 27 skirts now.

[STEVIE]

42 is the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything, simple really.
The problem is that no one knows the right question.
Ref. Douglas Adams, Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy.
Yup MB, you have obviously applied deep thought in that reply or did Marvin assist?
15 to go by MB's reckoning then BM, I haven't counted mine and won't either.
TM, your "hot topic", has no actual need to be about clothes but why "hot"?
I interpreted, perhaps wrongly, that you wanted to raise controversy for its own sake and I apologise if I am wrong.
My own view that lively and sensible debate should occur without getting hot, that's how wars get started.
This planet might feel like a safer place if forty-two was actually adopted as the answer to all "hot" questions.
Steve.

[crfriend]

My own view that lively and sensible debate should occur without getting hot, that's how wars get started.

You nailed it with that one, Steve -- nailed it square. It's only through reasoned debate and conversation that progress ever happens -- and even then it can be two steps forward and one back (with an occasional two steps back).

The nice thing about reasoned debate is that it can happen without ruffling feathers or invoking anger. Unfortunately, the folks that can actually engage in that activity in the modern era are getting rather thin on the ground. Nowadays, everything's about the knee-jerk rather than seeking out common ground.

[timemeddler]

42 is the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything, simple really.
The problem is that no one knows the right question.
Ref. Douglas Adams, Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy.
Yup MB, you have obviously applied deep thought in that reply or did Marvin assist?
15 to go by MB's reckoning then BM, I haven't counted mine and won't either.
TM, your "hot topic", has no actual need to be about clothes but why "hot"?
I interpreted, perhaps wrongly, that you wanted to raise controversy for its own sake and I apologise if I am wrong.
My own view that lively and sensible debate should occur without getting hot, that's how wars get started.
This planet might feel like a safer place if forty-two was actually adopted as the answer to all "hot" questions.
Steve.

no worries, I just mean in general the whole transgender issue tends to be one of those subjects that people can get worked up about and often post things like that, same with gun control, abortion, etc. I just meant there's always the chance of it being posted for unrelated reasons. I cant know for sure how the specific individual thinks after all.

[crfriend]

I just mean in general the whole transgender issue tends to be one of those subjects that people can get worked up about and often post things like that, same with gun control, abortion, etc.

In the vast majority of cases when somebody invokes the trans-* idea it's done as a slur (which is intentional) or from simple ignorance (which is accidental), and the problem is trying to figure out which it is at the time. If it's the former, they deserve a very fast, firm, and entirely curt answer; the latter can be left alone or talked about at one's own level of desire.

Another problem, and this dovetails into the notion of the slur above, is that if we're going to have to "wait for an answer from society" then we're going to have a very long wait indeed because it's going to take at least a generation more to die off which will hopefully take the scourge of neo-conservatism and its hard-line nasty aspect with them. Society needs to change in this way before any socially advanced notion even stands a chance of being discussed and considered seriously. Until then, it'll be knee-jerk reactions, slurs, nastiness, and precisely no forward progress. And it may already be too late. It's possible that humanity has lost this cause for all time.

[pelmut]

I just mean in general the whole transgender issue tends to be one of those subjects that people can get worked up about and often post things like that, same with gun control, abortion, etc.

In the vast majority of cases when somebody invokes the trans-* idea it's done as a slur (which is intentional) or from simple ignorance (which is accidental), and the problem is trying to figure out which it is at the time. If it's the former, they deserve a very fast, firm, and entirely curt answer; the latter can be left alone or talked about at one's own level of desire.

There is a background problem of a small but noisy hate lobby who bombard the public and the media with a constant stream of ignorance.  This is what most people hear and come to believe.

[crfriend]

There is a background problem of a small but noisy hate lobby who bombard the public and the media with a constant stream of ignorance.  This is what most people hear and come to believe.

And that facet dovetails into my commentary of the hard-line neo-con philosophy that has consumed the world since the 1980s. Everything in this manages to go hand-in-hand. What can any of us hope for in the coming future (if there is one)?

Yes, the number of noise-makers are small, but the sheer volume attracts attention -- mistakenly. I've heard this called the "dopeler effect": The louder (or faster/harder) a bad idea comes at one, the better it sounds. The sad part is that seems to really be the case.