What will crossdressers do if dresses becomes mainstream for men

[denimini]

As for what crossdressers might wear if the majority of men wore skirts; they could differentiate by donning a pair of pants as I would guess that more women wear pants that skirts. I do agree with others here that the term crossdressing will eventually cease to be used and be considered as another variant of clothing choice. Padded bras being an accessory like shoulder pads, bustles, and high heels.

[Coder]

Now, such ankle boots are firmly a Woman’s item of attire - not for Men. Here in the UK, recently, Women have taken to wearing Biker Boots (or, colloquially, ‘Bovver Boots’) with a Dress. My Nephew’s Girlfriend - a really good looking Woman - will arrive at a family function in a Dress with Sheer Tights, and wearing ‘manly’ Biker Boots. The overall look is a real disconnect. It really doesn’t go together at all. Yet, Women are assimilating Biker Boots as their own.

This is not a new trend (at least in the US) - it was popular in the 90’s/Y2K. I highly doubt women will take biker/combat boots from men, as they’ve assimilated them years ago. Just yesterday I saw one woman wearing a skirt with doc marten boots. She was wearing a grey midi skirt, black tights and oversized jacket. While the boots had a clumpy look to them, the whole outfit was oversized and looked balanced.

From time to time I see staff dressed like this (florals + boots). I do see more leggings+hiking boots on campus, but I feel that trend is influenced by the weather and a desire to have comfy footwear when walking about campus.

[STEVIE]

Women do not own women's clothes and as such, they do not have a monopoly on them.

"Clothes do not make the man (or woman)"
Agreed BM, but this thread is also raising a point about identity and not just clothes.
It was when I was fully able to differentiate my clothes and my gender identity that I was able to progress my life.
Up till then I did consider myself a fully paid up member of the cross dress society, not fully male or female actually.
While I can now rationalise the balance, many men will never realise that luxury and the full femme mode will continue to be the only release for them.
Whatever happens to mainstream fashion won't matter because all the idealised markers of femininity are embedded in our psyches from early childhood.
Denimini is correct, a dedicated cross dressed fashionista will just as likely wear trousers or jeans.
They'd just aspire to have the silhouette of the shapeliest female imaginable, Felicity Kendal comes to my mind or Tina Turner, if you prefer that look.
I know a young trans female and never seen her in a skirt or a dress, pretty much standard for her generation.
Sadly, though, the prejudice and hostility will remain until society can accept the blurred lines caused by gender fluidity. Relabelling clothes will only be a start, a step in the right direction.
Naturally, the progression and promotion of Men in Skirts will do no harm to this process either.
I hope this makes some sense and avoids reachin for the can opener.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

Stevie it's a a lot to take in and process but I'll give it a go. However, I will give it my best go.

"Clothes do not make the man (or woman)"
Agreed BM, but this thread is also raising a point about identity and not just clothes.
It was when I was fully able to differentiate my clothes and my gender identity that I was able to progress my life.

If I understand you correctly the CD'er in full fem mode is essentially a women for that time (in their head).
How would the world need to change so that the CD'er could function 'normally'. Would it be enough just to dress as they pleased or would their issues with gender still be present?

...
Whatever happens to mainstream fashion won't matter because all the idealised markers of femininity are embedded in our psyches from early childhood.

My own view is that the essence of M and F exists. It is not embedded in us at an early age. Our clothing is the physical manifestation of those essentail differences. The problem as i see it is men are prevented from expressing themselves while remaining men.
CD'ers are living on the fringe of society because they are a small group away from the mainstream. They are not the same but the are equally valid. They cannot become the mainstream because their population is too small.

Denimini is correct, a dedicated cross dressed fashionista will just as likely wear trousers or jeans.
They'd just aspire to have the silhouette of the shapeliest female imaginable, Felicity Kendal comes to my mind or Tina Turner, if you prefer that look.
I know a young trans female and never seen her in a skirt or a dress, pretty much standard for her generation.

So for crossdresser it all about the picture and for trans it all about the gender?

Sadly, though, the prejudice and hostility will remain until society can accept the blurred lines caused by gender fluidity. Relabelling clothes will only be a start, a step in the right direction.

I think that society can eventually accept men in skirts. I think that society can accept blurred gender mannerisms. But blurred gender is proving to be out of reach.

[pelmut]

[...]
So for crossdresser it all about the picture and for trans it all about the gender?

That's a pretty good summary.  It is complicated by the transgender person's need to present a picture that confirms their gender to society and themselves -- but that follows on from being transgender and is not the cause of it.

[STEVIE]

[...]
So for crossdresser it all about the picture and for trans it all about the gender?

That's a pretty good summary.  It is complicated by the transgender person's need to present a picture that confirms their gender to society and themselves -- but that follows on from being transgender and is not the cause of it.

Yes, to both of you, just a pity that society won't make it that easy.
Steve.

[familyman34]

[...]
So for crossdresser it all about the picture and for trans it all about the gender?

That's a pretty good summary.  It is complicated by the transgender person's need to present a picture that confirms their gender to society and themselves -- but that follows on from being transgender and is not the cause of it.

Yes, to both of you, just a pity that society won't make it that easy.
Steve.

I wonder about the extent to which most of us in SC are subconsciously influenced by the language that we speak (English in this forum).

Because our thoughts are influenced by the words in which we express those thoughts, English-speakers tend to think about people in two genders, and with two gender-labelled sets of pronouns/possessive adjectives (he/him/his, she/her/her).

French speakers (and probably Spanish and Italian speakers too) are obliged to put all of their concepts into one of two genders, either feminine or masculine (see the still unresolved issues concerned with "inclusive" language in French). How does a male member of the French military feel about being UNE SENTINELLE when he is doing sentry duty?

German (and Dutch/Flemish) still have three genders, though I find that the neuter in Dutch/Flemish is very little used when referring to people. Today, when Germans talk about a young girl (EIN MÄDCHEN), do they really subsequently refer to her using neuter pronouns?

I would be very interested in reflexions/comments from speakers of languages with no grammatical gender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... al_genders). Are trans and CD people more common in these cultures? Are the individuals concerned more easily accepted? Do they feel more secure in their clothing choices? etc, etc.

[Spirou003]

In french the gendered pronoun is not an issue, as far as I can tell. It is accepted "as is", to be part of the language construction without minding that much about it. I know nobody having problem with it, save from all those times where you're not sure you must use one or the other. We can have fun with it sometimes (male genitals often have feminine pronoun and female genitals often have masculine pronoun), and I know a few people may use it to argue about "gender equality blablabla". Generally the latter people are to ignore (not saying to ignore gender equality or all people defending it, just those using pronouns as argument), since they are obligated to use linguistics to argue.

[JohnH]

I understand that (das) Mādchen is a diminutive form of (die) Magd (maid). Diminutive forms are given the grammatical neuter gender.
[Das is the neuter nominative definite article and die is the female nominative definite article.]

Now I admit I did not answer the question if neuter pronouns are used to refer to Mādchen or feminine pronouns in practice.

John

[STEVIE]

Are trans and CD people more common in these cultures? Are the individuals concerned more easily accepted? Do they feel more secure in their clothing choices? etc, etc.

FamilyMan, I think you have just expanded the can of worms to mega proportions.
Societal norms, traditions and even religions are the factors which have most effect on individuals not it's linguistic structures.
Conformity and preservation of the status quo are really the basis of social cohesion and function.
Had I been born French, German or Italian, would my experience of growing up been any different?
I doubt it because gender norms are well established and challenging them, out of the question.
More or less incidence of cross dressing and transgenderism maybe, but I'd bet it is less than significant statistically.
Sorry, but conservatism has ruled for a long time and will continue somewhat longer too.
Actually the UK may actually become a haven for alternative lives as the rest of the world becomes more intolerant.
Steve.

[Grok]

I think that society can eventually accept men in skirts. I think that society can accept blurred gender mannerisms. But blurred gender is proving to be out of reach.

Acceptance of MIS, eventually. In the long run, the distinction of twin pipes versus one pipe will no longer be gendered. Any individual, regardless of gender, will have the option of wearing either type.

[rode_kater]

German (and Dutch/Flemish) still have three genders, though I find that the neuter in Dutch/Flemish is very little used when referring to people. Today, when Germans talk about a young girl (EIN MÄDCHEN), do they really subsequently refer to her using neuter pronouns?

Of course not. In Dutch you say "het meisje" (= neuter) because all words ending in -je are neuter. It's the diminutive form of "meid" which is gendered. They're called "genders" but a more appropriate term would be "classes". The rules can be pretty arbitrary. Like these ones:

• Words ending in -isme/-ment/-sel/-um = het- (neuter)
• Words with a foreign origin ending in -ade/-ide/-ode/-ude/-age/-esse/-ica/-iek/-ie/-ine/-iteit/-ose/-sis/-suur/-yse = de (gendered)

[source]

These days Dutch is apparently classified as "common and neuter" distinctions, as the distinction between masculine and feminine has basically vanished.
In this context, -chen in Germen is equivalent to -je in Dutch.

Incidently, English does use gender in some places, like boats. As in: look at this boat, isn't she beautiful. No English speaker really thinks boats are female.

If we were starting the study of languages from scratch we probably wouldn't use the word gender in this context. It's a fairly Euro-centric concept.

[skirted84]

Then it will be mission accomplished for the fashion freedom advocates. And be as easy for male crossdressers as women today, albeit by dint of their own success in achieving clothing parity with men by and large, plus the clothes they still quango as their own.

Incidently most sex changers I know personally still dress as most men and women, saving their feminine garb for the dressiest occasions like other women.

[Myopic Bookworm]

Incidently most sex changers I know ...

Logically, sex changers are transsexuals, and dress for the sex they identify with. People who crossdress are changing gender, not sex.

[pelmut]

Incidently most sex changers I know ...

Logically, sex changers are transsexuals, and dress for the sex they identify with. People who crossdress are changing gender, not sex.

Sex (chromosomal) cannot be changed but may not be the same in all organs.
Sex (function of organs) can be destroyed but not created.
Sex (appearance of external organs) can be changed.
Sex (skeletal development) cannot be changed after puberty.
Sex (soft tissue shape) can be changed by surgery or clothing.
Sex (legal) vague unnecessary concept in English law that legalises discrimination and makes money for lawyers.
Sex (social) vague unnecessary concept that is used to justify discrimination and make money for clothing manufacturers.
Sex is far simpler to explain than gender.