What will crossdressers do if dresses becomes mainstream for men

[Barleymower]

It's strange that guys in full fem mode are looked down on. Even here there's and air of 'something wrong" with men doing that. But really is there something wrong with men in full fem mode? If it fulfills a deep need then who am I or anyone else to say its wrong?
I've said this before: as long as the person concerned is open about themselves and do not have any nefarious intentions then it's ok. Let men and women express themselves as they feel most comfortable.
Dangerous people don't generally draw attention to themselves by dressing up. One of the world's worst serial killers looked like butter would not melt.

[Coder]

It's strange that guys in full fem mode are looked down on. Even here there's and air of 'something wrong" with men doing that. But really is there something wrong with men in full fem mode?

Hrmm, I guess I should let Stu expound on this. I don't look down upon them, but I feel like many of them might be misguided, and if they had the option to wear what they wanted, perhaps they wouldn't have the mindset they need to mimic women (sorry if that's a harsh way of putting it - not trying to offend). I just feel like, men are so beaten down today - and this is often at the hands of other men - that we are relegated into a little box of expression. I think the world tells them "you can't wear a skirt if you don't look/act/talk like a woman". My analysis is a very simplistic approach - and I'm only talking about CD's here. Maybe I don't understand that community - maybe clothes are secondary to what they need - and are just part of the whole package.

I will say, shouting into the void, that I approach MIS as a clothing choice, nothing else - and the clothing is just that, clothes. I really want there to be a "skirt lexicon" for men - and at the same time I want men's - our - options to increase so we can dress however we want. I would trend towards maximalist if I had the guts, and yet I don't.

Edit: I should add - it's not just clothes. Men are boxed into acceptable emotional states, acceptable forms of expression, etc... that frankly doesn't work for any human. I'd imagine some of the desire is being able to express oneself in a way that you as a man were NOT allowed to experience.

[JohnH]

What we have in society is it''s regarded better to be masculine than feminine, while forgetting that it would be possible for females to reproduce without males. The trouble is the offspring would have the same genetic makeup as the mothers. Males exist to provide genetic diversity to ensure the survival of a specie.

John

[Stu]

It's strange that guys in full fem mode are looked down on. Even here there's and air of 'something wrong" with men doing that. But really is there something wrong with men in full fem mode?

It's not that there is something wrong with a man being "in full fem mode", but I can see only two possible reasons for this:

1. He wants to be regarded as a woman - in which case he is on the path towards being transsexual;

OR

2. He gets some kind of thrill out of dressing as a woman.

If the male in question is still a boy and dressing as a girl, then there is a third possibility, namely that he is going through a phase in which he is curious about or experimenting with gender and with his identity.

[Barleymower]

Hrmm, I guess I should let Stu expound on this. I don't look down upon them, but I feel like many of them might be misguided.

I think CD men are not misguided. They see the forbidden fruit and they want it. I completely agree that if society was not built on its foundations of masculine and feminine atire and each was allowed to dress as they wished, then there could be no CD and probably a lot less Trans

and if they had the option to wear what they wanted, perhaps they wouldn't have the mindset they need to mimic women (sorry if that's a harsh way of putting it - not trying to offend).

By saying they are mimicking women are we saying that the clothes given to women, belong to them? The women living today did not invent women's clothes, they were dressed in them from birth.

I just feel like, men are so beaten down today - and this is often at the hands of other men - that we are relegated into a little box of expression. I think the world tells them "you can't wear a skirt if you don't look/act/talk like a woman". My analysis is a very simplistic approach - and I'm only talking about CD's here. Maybe I don't understand that community - maybe clothes are secondary to what they need - and are just part of the whole package.

I agree with you but I also see another angle. Perhaps men have only themselves to blame. Men do not stand up for themselves in this respect. They very quick to accept the judgment of others of what it means to be a man. Each man should decide for himself what he needs to do support his wife when she needs him most. If he succeeds in that then he is a man.

I will say, shouting into the void, that I approach MIS as a clothing choice, nothing else - and the clothing is just that, clothes. I really want there to be a "skirt lexicon" for men - and at the same time I want men's - our - options to increase so we can dress however we want. I would trend towards maximalist if I had the guts, and yet I don't.

You are stonger than you think you are. Compare yourself to someone who waits until the house is asleep and then tries on a skirt in the bathroom. Terrified he will be discovered. You are way ahead of him.

Edit: I should add - it's not just clothes. Men are boxed into acceptable emotional states, acceptable forms of expression, etc... that frankly doesn't work for any human. I'd imagine some of the desire is being able to express oneself in a way that you as a man were NOT allowed to experience.

True.

[Barleymower]

It's strange that guys in full fem mode are looked down on. Even here there's and air of 'something wrong" with men doing that. But really is there something wrong with men in full fem mode?

It's not that there is something wrong with a man being "in full fem mode", but I can see only two possible reasons for this:

1. He wants to be regarded as a woman - in which case he is on the path towards being transsexual;

OR

2. He gets some kind of thrill out of dressing as a woman.

If the male in question is still a boy and dressing as a girl, then there is a third possibility, namely that he is going through a phase in which he is curious about or experimenting with gender and with his identity.

There is a fourth possibility. He is fulfilling a deep need within himself. This need only subsides when he escapes into the other persona. Afterwards he can return to his other self until the need rises again.

[crfriend]

It's not that there is something wrong with a man being "in full fem mode", but I can see only two possible reasons for this:

1. He wants to be regarded as a woman - in which case he is on the path towards being transsexual;
OR
2. He gets some kind of thrill out of dressing as a woman.

If 1 above, he's on the trans-* trajectory, and that can be easily understood given how bad things are culturally for men now.
If 2, he either gets a "kick" out of it or he's engaged in "performance art". This is the classic "transvestite" or "crossdresser" (same word linguistically).

What's missing is 3. There's no mention of the guy who just has a slightly "out of whack" (as perceived by society) sartorial sense. Nobody ever thinks of the third option when it comes to adults, which is sad. Just swapping trousers for a skirt and keeping the rest the same is fairly easy, but when one gets into the realm of dresses it becomes considerably harder. I'm only now finally convincing my current lady-friend that I'm perfectly normal in the socially-important aspects (intellect not being one of those). Yes, it's a large hill to climb.

If the male in question is still a boy and dressing as a girl, then there is a third possibility, namely that he is going through a phase in which he is curious about or experimenting with gender and with his identity.

I left children out of my diagnosis very deliberately.

[pelmut]

[...]
I think CD men are not misguided. They see the forbidden fruit and they want it. I completely agree that if society was not built on its foundations of masculine and feminine atire and each was allowed to dress as they wished, then there could be no CD and probably a lot less Trans

It's a bit different for trans people.  We don't want to be like the opposite sex and gender, we know that underneath we already are that gender and want other people to see us that way.  We try to dress as the opposite sex and have our appearance changed so that people can accept us as the gender we know we are.  Because we judge by appearances, the same as everyone else, the change of appearance also benefits us; we see ourselves as the gender we know we are and we feel better about ourselves because of it.

If people didn't link clothes to gender, there would be no cross-dressers.
If people didn't link clothes to sex, there would be no fetish dressers.
If people didn't link gender to sex, there would be no trangender.

[Stu]

What's missing is 3. There's no mention of the guy who just has a slightly "out of whack" (as perceived by society) sartorial sense. Nobody ever thinks of the third option when it comes to adults, which is sad. Just swapping trousers for a skirt and keeping the rest the same is fairly easy, but when one gets into the realm of dresses it becomes considerably harder. I'm only now finally convincing my current lady-friend that I'm perfectly normal in the socially-important aspects (intellect not being one of those). Yes, it's a large hill to climb.

Yes, I agree and I would be Option 3 - but I was responding specifically to the "full fem mode" idea.

[Barleymower]

[...]
I think CD men are not misguided. They see the forbidden fruit and they want it. I completely agree that if society was not built on its foundations of masculine and feminine atire and each was allowed to dress as they wished, then there could be no CD and probably a lot less Trans

It's a bit different for trans people.  We don't want to be like the opposite sex and gender, we know that underneath we already are that gender and want other people to see us that way.  We try to dress as the opposite sex and have our appearance changed so that people can accept us as the gender we know we are.  Because we judge by appearances, the same as everyone else, the change of appearance also benefits us; we see ourselves as the gender we know we are and we feel better about ourselves because of it.

If people didn't link clothes to gender, there would be no cross-dressers.
If people didn't link clothes to sex, there would be no fetish dressers.
If people didn't link gender to sex, there would be no trangender.

Thanks Pelmut, I had not considered that Trans are Trans no matter what the childhood holds or what they wear.
I would say that not allowing kids to be themselves by stigmatising anything that isn't binary must lead to emotional problems. Without anyone to talk to could lead them to drawing the wrong conclusions.

[crfriend]

I would be Option 3 - but I was responding specifically to the "full fem mode" idea.

I'm a "3" as well, but it's sometimes difficult to escape "full fem" is one is wearing, for instance, a dress. Now, I happen to have a full face full of whiskers so I'm not likely to be misclassified, but that's not going to be the case for guys who are clean-shaven (and who came up with that idea?). Compounding the problem is that there are a whole lot of women out there with entirely butch/male haircuts.

It's a bit of a can of worms.

[STEVIE]

It's a bit of a can of worms.

Nope, it is the whole of the mega super duper catering size can of worms.
Having experienced every aspect of "cross" under discussion here and with sixty years of experience, I feel I can speak with some authority.
The answer, and I don't believe there is one can only lie with the individual concerned.
Frankly, I am often amazed that I have actually emerged as a relatively adjusted and balanced individual.
Had things turned out differently, I could just as likely have been living this life as Sara, equally I could have ended up dead.
Let me say this and I stress, she is still part of my life but I know I have no wish to be her!
On the other hand, I also know that she has no wish to be Stephen so we kind of coexist as Steve.
I have no real idea of how it works, but it does for me/us at any rate.
Just accept, we are all different, just imperfectly and commonly human.
Leave the can opener in the kitchen drawer.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

It's a bit of a can of worms.

Nope, it is the whole of the mega super duper catering size can of worms.
...
Leave the can opener in the kitchen drawer.
Steve.

Women do not own women's clothes and as such, they do not have a monopoly on them. This is the biggest part of the problem. Once women have adopted a style of dress it becomes 'theirs' in their eyes and in the eyes of many men. There is no article of clothing that a women wears which she has no right to wear.

Take away the gender of clothing and the whole can of worms disappears without opening it.

There will still be LGBTQIA+, there will be still fetish etc but there will be a lot less confusion and zero finger pointing.

[jamodu]

I’m just old enough to remember the ‘mods’ and ‘rockers’ men’s styles of the 1960’s. Then, ‘mods’ would typically wear ankle boots with their ‘drainpipe suits’. Ankle Boots were a Man’s item of clothing.

Now, such ankle boots are firmly a Woman’s item of attire - not for Men. Here in the UK, recently, Women have taken to wearing Biker Boots (or, colloquially, ‘Bovver Boots’) with a Dress. My Nephew’s Girlfriend - a really good looking Woman - will arrive at a family function in a Dress with Sheer Tights, and wearing ‘manly’ Biker Boots. The overall look is a real disconnect. It really doesn’t go together at all. Yet, Women are assimilating Biker Boots as their own.

[steamman]

I simply view men who fully CD as men who have a desire to be someone else. It’s escapism. I’ve read similar parallels with people who are into wearing latex and dress up in suits and hoods. They get to escape being themselves and become this other person. There is nothing wrong with it at all and is probably very beneficial to mental health.

But like everyone else, I long to see the day when clothes become fully non gendered. It’s ludicrous we still have this in the 21st century.