skirtcafe.org

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/suprem ... orm-policy

The court dismissed the appeal without explanation, leaving in place a lower court's ruling that held that the uniform requirement violated federal law. Charter schools are publicly funded programs and therefore subject to Title IX and other Constitutional protections, the lower court found.

I'm surprised at the outcome, for sure - I didn't expect them to dismiss this one.

For all intents and purposes - this doesn't change the status quo... and I highly doubt there's one or two brave individuals who would advocate for giving boys the freedom to wear what they want. I did not have the courage or fortitude at that age to ask my parents to go to court to let me wear what I want in school - I didn't even know it would have been an option. And even if it had occurred to me to sue the school, I was already bullied so why give them one more thing to bully me for?

What I like about this - it gets people to discuss the double standard. Once people start explaining why women have a right to wear - or not wear - pants - you have to ask the very obvious question - why can't men?

Coder wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:43 pm . I did not have the courage or fortitude at that age to ask my parents to go to court to let me wear what I want in school

What's ridiculous is that in a supposedly "free society" that you should actually need a court's approval for this. Once permission is granted from the parent or guardian, then that should suffice, provided the clothing in question can fairly be worn by others in the system.

It seems a shame that it was necessary to involve the highest court in the land on thia issue and that it could not be resolved on a more local level.

Brad wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:43 pm It seems a shame that it was necessary to involve the highest court in the land on thia issue and that it could not be resolved on a more local level.

Imagine the legal expenses involved with involving the highest court in such matters....

That would be one expensive skirt outing!

Not sure if people picked up on the detail of this case. It was *not* about giving people the right to wear skirts. It was in fact about enforced skirt wearing for girls based upon outdated stereotypes.

The charter school in question offers a “classical, traditional-values-based education,” enforced in part with a dress code designed to promote “mutual respect between boys and girls.”

The school founder, Baker Mitchell, argued the skirt rule promoted “chivalry” and “a code of conduct where women are treated, they’re regarded as a fragile vessel that men are supposed to take care of and honor.” He also referenced the 1999 mass shooting at Columbine High School as inspiration for the policy, according to the initial lawsuit, and suggested the dress code would make school shootings less likely.

There is more to this story than skirts - I think this issues was somewhat of a Trojan Horse inside which the larger topics of publicly-funded, religion-based schooling and a right-wing war on woke were hiding.

FranTastic444 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 1:10 pm There is more to this story than skirts - I think this issues was somewhat of a Trojan Horse inside which the larger topics of publicly-funded, religion-based schooling and a right-wing war on woke were hiding.

I'm not trying to sound off the old and tired "those damned kids today" cliche... but I have to say, there does seem to be something... different... about kids today. Something is off, and I'm not sure what the issue is, it's probably a complicated issue with many, many aspects. I admit, sometimes I wonder if all of this "liberation" in schools has generated the positive result we were aiming for.

It seems to be breeding a generation of young adults with no respect for authority whatsoever, and while I generally don't like being told what to do anymore than anyone else does, there is a time and a place for authority and even conformity. I mean, I can certainly be the "old hippie" from time to time, but even I know there comes a time when I have to behave and play the game.

I notice there are fewer and fewer teens and young adults working in these restaurants and other entry level service entry jobs, usually they are people around my age. When I do have a chance to encounter a working age teenager out in the wild, they seem to have a very "off putting" vibe about them. They don't make eye contact, they throw my groceries around, jerk my card out of my hand and throw it back at me... they can be very rude.

I almost never have this issue with people over 35.

I imagine I'm going to get chastised for this too, as I'm treading into "conservative territory", but I can't help but think that somehow we're enabling a lot of behavior that's going to bite us in the ass down the road.

I don't know.... maybe I'm just turning into an old fart, but for the last few years I've have to endure constantly being cussed at and belittled by a 24 year old living with us that can't seem to manage her life, yet had to the audacity to state that "I'm the problem", coupled with being told on several occasions last week from a 20 year old trainee, after I had to demonstrate that you turn a set screw counter clockwise to loosen it, upon his embarrassment of the situation, hollers out a "f----- you!", then calls me a dumb ass.... all the while, the whole time we're riding around on service calls, rather than engage and make conversation about the job and what it's like, proceeded to keep his head bowed in a perfect 90 degree angle to his back, while he watched whatever he was blasting on his phone with the busted speaker, while I tried to focus on navigating the big city traffic I'm not accustomed to, only raising his head to brag that he's already had three hit and runs, and his car insurance runs $400 per month. He actually seemed to sulk quietly for about 30 minutes when I told him he couldn't have the charging port in the van to charge his phone because my work laptop was about to go dead.

Damn I'm glad to be home working with proper adults again...

I don't know man... I'm not overly impressed. I came home almost ready to state we need to put God back in schools again... Jesus... something!

I still clearly remember our old-school school headmaster from my early years in education (I'd have been about 10 at the time) reading us a passage of text bemoaning the "youth of today" only to reveal that it was taken from ancient text. The provenance of such text is debatable, but I do feel that every generation concludes that the youth of those generations that follow were not a patch on their (no doubt pristine) behavior, moral fortitude and aptitude at the same age.

As an aside, I was surprised to read about the high percentage (20) of Gen Z who identify as LGBTQ.

FranTastic444 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 2:26 pm As an aside, I was surprised to read about the high percentage (20) of Gen Z who identify as LGBTQ.

I'm not sure I'm buying that.

Taken together (boomers through Z) that's a pretty sizable number considering the massive push back with regards to LGBT issues. And it's not just politicians, no... it's the people.

Speaking of my 20 year old colleague, though we never talked "politics", he did blurt out when I mentioned that I'd like to learn Italian, "in THIS country we speak ENGLISH!"....

*facepalm*

From my observation, those stats are BS.

moonshadow wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 1:59 pmI'm not trying to sound off the old and tired "those damned kids today" cliche... but I have to say, there does seem to be something... different... about kids today. Something is off, and I'm not sure what the issue is, it's probably a complicated issue with many, many aspects. I admit, sometimes I wonder if all of this "liberation" in schools has generated the positive result we were aiming for.

I suspect that "what's off" is that today's kids know how screwed up the world that they are going to inherit is going to be -- and they're p!ssed off about the matter. They watch their parents struggle to make ends meet and pay the bills -- which fewer and fewer are able to as the money drains from the economy and they realise that when they have to strike out -- which most everybody does eventually -- that they're going to be royally screwed and won't ever have a chance to earn a decent living, or even a living wage.

I sensed this in the mid 1970s and made a conscious decision not to have children because I saw the handwriting on the wall -- that my generation was going to be the first in a long time that was never going to do as well as his parents -- and it's only gotten worse; magnitudes worse. I never sensed the full scope of the horror that would be else I likely would have committed suicide as a young teen, but instead soldiered on, got a few good breaks, and have done OK by most assessments; I'll never be able to retire because of the way prices are rising, but at least I may be able to staunch some of the bleeding. The children of today have nothing to look forward to other than a destitute existence -- and that's not a life. And they know it -- and are rightfully bitter.

crfriend wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 3:08 pm I suspect that "what's off" is that today's kids know how screwed up the world that they are going to inherit is going to be -- and they're p!ssed off about the matter. They watch their parents struggle to make ends meet and pay the bills -- which fewer and fewer are able to as the money drains from the economy and they realise that when they have to strike out -- which most everybody does eventually -- that they're going to be royally screwed and won't ever have a chance to earn a decent living, or even a living wage.

I sensed this in the mid 1970s and made a conscious decision not to have children because I saw the handwriting on the wall -- that my generation was going to be the first in a long time that was never going to do as well as his parents -- and it's only gotten worse; magnitudes worse. I never sensed the full scope of the horror that would be else I likely would have committed suicide as a young teen, but instead soldiered on, got a few good breaks, and have done OK by most assessments; I'll never be able to retire because of the way prices are rising, but at least I may be able to staunch some of the bleeding. The children of today have nothing to look forward to other than a destitute existence -- and that's not a life. And they know it -- and are rightfully bitter.

What I see when I can pry into their mind a little bit is an incredible sense of apathy regarding everything. It's legal to vote at 18, and yet most of them stay at home. But those who do vote tend to favor unrealistic policies, freebies, and other perks, but few seem to want to put forth the actual elbow grease to make it a reality. Many-a-communes from the 1960's failed over similar issues.

Yes, we've all been there, myself included, but there comes a point in life when we have to stop feeling sorry for ourselves, grow up, and start working to make the positive change in the world we live in. They have to understand, it's not going to be handed to them. It wasn't handed to their parents, their grandparents, the great grandparents, etc. While the boomers did indeed enjoy a land rich in milk and honey, virtually every generation prior to them going all the way back to the dawn of civilization had to endure a lot of pain, suffering, and hard knocks.

I believe this suffering is a vital part of the human experience, and it's character building. As for the future, the future is theirs, they are going to have to stand up and own it. But they need to understand, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Somebody has to pay for it. They often expect the world to bend and cater to their whims, but they don't seem to grasp the concept that sometimes, in order to achieve this, they have to bend a little too. It's call compromise, and it seems lost on a lot of youths.

I've heard we're starting them out around $25 per hour with a handsome benefit package, vacation right off the start, insurance with a $500 deductible, and they show up for work on their first day in torn jeans, a printed tee shirt and a oversized ball cap turned backwards, head bowed in their phone all day.

When I started in this industry back in 2005, I made 50 cents over minimum wage, and my insurance actually wasn't as good as what we have now. Slowly, year after year, I worked and proved myself, took on extra assignments for the overtime, throughout the covid issue, I never missed an hour of work, even when we slowed to a crawl, because I'd raise my hand and volunteer for the assignments nobody else wanted. Even to this day, I frequently work in Louisville, not because they force me, but because I want to help, and I enjoy the challenge.

In contrast, when I smiled and mentioned to our new hire "someday you'll have to spend a week with us in Bristol...",

"man, f---k dat" was the response I got.

Sorry Carl, I know they have the cards stacked against them, but there is no excuse for this, and this isn't an isolated incident, I see this all of the time with other kids too. I don't see victims, I see spoiled brats, that are really going to be in a world of hurting when their parents finally start to die off and they have to fend for themselves.

moonshadow wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 3:26 pm I believe this suffering is a vital part of the human experience, and it's character building. As for the future, the future is theirs, they are going to have to stand up and own it.

That's a common religious point of view I think. While there is an element that the pandemic had a significant impact on people's ability to socialise, they're not stupid. They know they've been shafted.

The baby-boomers dramatically changed everything they touched. When they needed schools, schools were built en-mass to teach them. When they reached university age university education was made universal and free. When they wanted to move out governments instituted massive house building programs to ensure they could all affordably buy or rent a house. Later on those universities were deemed too expensive and now students should pay for their own education as market rates. Planning laws were tightened up so you couldn't build as many houses because they might spoil someone's view. They were turned into investments to earn money with, rather than being a basic right.

moonshadow wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 3:26 pm When I started in this industry back in 2005, I made 50 cents over minimum wage, and my insurance actually wasn't as good as what we have now. Slowly, year after year, I worked and proved myself, took on extra assignments for the overtime, throughout the covid issue, I never missed an hour of work, even when we slowed to a crawl, because I'd raise my hand and volunteer for the assignments nobody else wanted. Even to this day, I frequently work in Louisville, not because they force me, but because I want to help, and I enjoy the challenge.

Why did you do that though? Not just because you were a kind hearted person. Also because with these increased wages you could do more things, go more places, save to buy your own place. Nowadays young people can say they earn a good wage and realise they will never be able to afford their own home. The house prices and rents are all rising faster than their wages with no sign off stopping. In that situation, why bother trying harder? I find the number of people who earn a decent salary but are still living at home to be quite shocking. You learn a lot by living on your own having to fend for yourself, and there's a generation that is missing that experience entirely.

I also know a number of young people that said "screw the rat race", left their well paying jobs, found a cheap tiny place and only work just enough to do the things they enjoy. Why work 40 hours when 20 is enough to live. From societies point a view a waste of an education, but I can't blame them really.

When old-age pensions were started there were 6 working people per person aged 65 and older, soon it will be 2 working people. All those older people that want someone to look after them when they get old? The people who are going to look after them? You're looking at them. When you're sitting there in your paid-off house in dirty incontinence briefs, you better not complain the person helping you is too expensive while they don't earn enough to pay the rent or they might just leave you there. Yes, someone needs to do the work, but they don't owe the older generations anything.

moonshadow wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 3:26 pm I don't see victims, I see spoiled brats, that are really going to be in a world of hurting when their parents finally start to die off and they have to fend for themselves.

When baby-boomers start dying off en-mass, maybe house prices will fall back to something reasonable. I doubt it, but it would be nice. We'll do what we always do, fill the gaps with immigration.

rode_kater wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 9:08 pm When you're sitting there in your paid-off house in dirty incontinence briefs, you better not complain the person helping you is too expensive while they don't earn enough to pay the rent or they might just leave you there

If I get to that point, and I can no longer take care of myself, I plan to make my way into the mountains and let myself die.

And the reality is, nobody will give a sh!t.

My take on this is probably way off base as I am not versed on all the issues but here goes my $.02 anyway. If the parents of the students didn't like the dress code why are they sending their kids there in the first place? Was it something that was hidden from them initially? I absolutely believe in speaking up for what's right and a student's and parent's rights about dress codes should be heard. But in a situation where the parents chose the school specifically and agreed to all the rules and regulations up front, and since it is a private school, their best recourse, if they can't get the school to see things differently is to take their business elsewhere.

Modoc wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 3:16 am My take on this is probably way off base as I am not versed on all the issues but here goes my $.02 anyway. If the parents of the students didn't like the dress code why are they sending their kids there in the first place? Was it something that was hidden from them initially? I absolutely believe in speaking up for what's right and a student's and parent's rights about dress codes should be heard. But in a situation where the parents chose the school specifically and agreed to all the rules and regulations up front, and since it is a private school, their best recourse, if they can't get the school to see things differently is to take their business elsewhere.

That’s the part that’s a head-scratcher for me as well.

However, regardless of what they agreed to the school takes public funding, so is beholden to certain rules and regulations it obviously wasn’t following - this probably has wider implications for charter schools across the nation. Not just clothing but other policies they have in place.

Rode, I know you're a thoughtful man and I can appreciate your perspective, but you just can't expect to get something from nothing. These youngsters have to understand that you get out what you put in. Yes, sometimes in life you're the hammer and sometimes you're the nail, but you always have to get back up, brush yourself off, and keep on keeping on.

You just can't give up.