Why don't men wear skirts?

[Barleymower]

I really like this You Tube video. In record time it covers an enormus amount of ground destroying common held beliefs in its wake and leaves you in no doubt why the status quo exists today and why the Male taking up of female clothes has been a major failure.

here are some bullet points.

• clothing as a political weapon to keep people within their boundaries

• Greeks saw men in womens garments as a status loss

• The king James Bible

• How hostility grew

• How the M/F power struggle began

• The growth of male humiliation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hzdo3vQ0a4

Where do we go from here? It's not enough to go out and be brave.

[rode_kater]

Where do we go from here? It's not enough to go out and be brave.

Isn't it? What people did in the past does not need to affect us today. Much of what's in that video is just a matter of proper education about gender, gender expression, gender roles, etc. Of course, the reactionaries will always try to prevent education removing the scales from people's eyes, but in the end it is us on the ground that will make the difference in the end.

First they ignore you
Then try laugh at you
Then they fight you <--- you are here.
And then you win

[Barleymower]

Isn't it? What people did in the past does not need to affect us today. Much of what's in that video is just a matter of proper education about gender, gender expression, gender roles, etc. Of course, the reactionaries will always try to prevent education removing the scales from people's eyes, but in the end it is us on the ground that will make the difference in the end.

First they ignore you
Then try laugh at you
Then they fight you <--- you are here.
And then you win

There is no real problem with wearing whatever you want, nobody really bats an eye. This is a big leap from my youth.
I also don't underestimate the value of just going out there. Done in the right way it gains the confidence of the crowd. They need to know that nothing awful is going to happen.
Mens skirt fashion is currently bland and demure much like drab male clothes with the addition of a skirt. I think this is a very good ploy to gain confidence in general.
The reason I think we should do more is because advancing MIS is painfully slow. LGBT+ is going through a tough time with fundamentalists. We are the sanity between worlds with no axe to grind.

The skirt cafe is good focal point for change to happen.

[crfriend]

I also don't underestimate the value of just going out there. Done in the right way it gains the confidence of the crowd. They need to know that nothing awful is going to happen.

The key is to act perfectly normal even if your clothing may look a bit "odd" to casual onlookers. The important thing to know is that you are doing nothing wrong, but merely exercising a style choice. Heck, I was out yesterday afternoon for dinner in my fuschia mini, a purple dress shirt, a black waistcoat (pdp11 colours!), black just-below-the-knee socks, and flats -- and received no guff whatsoever.

The reason I think we should do more is because advancing MIS is painfully slow. LGBT+ is going through a tough time with fundamentalists. We are the sanity between worlds with no axe to grind.

Well, one of the problems here is that "Men In Skirts" are so vanishingly thin on the ground that it's likely few folks have ever even seen -- much less interacted with -- one. This means there's still a substantial hill to climb.

To the second point, we're now beginning to see the start of the backlash against the trans-* types because most people have tired of the antics, the shrillness, and the constant "in your face" attitude. Now, more than ever, we need to distance style choices from even a whiff of anything sexual. This is a big hill to take, as well because lots of the trans-* types use clothes as a signifier that they're not like "normal folks", and that notion has stuck in the craw of the general public. The backlash is not going to go away any time soon, and is likely to get worse not better, potentially endangering the entirely innocent bloke in a skirt.

I'm willing to play that notion of sanity, but think that distance is wise lest people get the wrong idea.

[Barleymower]

Well, one of the problems here is that "Men In Skirts" are so vanishingly thin on the ground that it's likely few folks have ever even seen -- much less interacted with -- one. This means there's still a substantial hill to climb.

To the second point, we're now beginning to see the start of the backlash against the trans-* types because most people have tired of the antics, the shrillness, and the constant "in your face" attitude. Now, more than ever, we need to distance style choices from even a whiff of anything sexual.

So we have two distinct problems. MIS are thin on the ground and trans hatred. As you say MIS are vanishingly thin. There has to be a good reason for this. Apparently men really like women in women's clothes but they have zero interest for themselves in the fine clothes. They are men and can't abide anything feminine for themselves. Women on the other hand can be masculine if they feel like it or feminine as the mood takes them. The point being is its a ridiculous lie and should be changed. That's why we are so thin on the ground - fear.
As for trans people if only they had not been unfair. It wasn't fair to allow ex-men to compete with born women. It wasn't fair to put ex-men in women's prisons. That really gave the rad fems something to complain about.

I think in world of madness the sane moments here could make the difference

[jamie001]

I agree with CR that we need to distance ourselves from anything sexual, however it is important to understand that it does not mean that we need to distance ourselves from anything feminine. I will still wear pink, purple, or flowered skirts whenever I wish. We should still strive to be feminine if we like.

Also, regarding putting ex men into women's prisons, the only time that is acceptable and required is if the person has undergone the operation and no longer has male genitalia.

[rode_kater]

As for trans people if only they had not been unfair. It wasn't fair to allow ex-men to compete with born women. It wasn't fair to put ex-men in women's prisons. That really gave the rad fems something to complain about.

I find it terribly unfair that such things get reflected on the trans-community rather than on the people that actually made the decisions (who are almost certainly not trans). Most trans-people were never asked if they wanted to compete in a sport and who should be put in which prison, they just want to live their lives, just like us.

But of course, it's hard to get angry at the white Anglo-Saxon person who approved the transfer, so people just get angry at trans-people they don't know and have never met.

[crfriend]

So we have two distinct problems. MIS are thin on the ground and trans hatred.

Indeed, and these two need to be decoupled.

The main problem for MIS is that whilst women seem to support a man's decision to wear skirts, hardly a one of them are willing to embrace that man in a romantic relationship, That keeps the entire notion tamped down very, very effectively because the guy picks up that signal pretty darned quickly and needs to make a choice between his sartorial choices and of a life spent cold and alone. This is why we're so thin on the ground.

Now, to the topic of "trans-* hatred". It's not so much a problem of "hatred" per se, but rather one that waffles between misunderstanding and disgust -- and this is something that the MIS crowd can distance themselves from by virtue of their behaviours. The problem is magnified when you combine the "cold and alone" factor from above (which no sane man actually wants) and the "mistaken identity" that MIS are trans-*.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again now. "I have precisely no animosity towards the trans-* crowd." They merely want to lead their lives the way they want to, and deserve to be granted that liberty. The main problem is all the sh!t-stirring that goes on in the press and the world of PR (which I suspect most trans-* types dislike because it's making their lives more difficult than it needs to be). The problem with the backlash is that it'll be a mob action, and mobs are not fun things to deal with.

I think in world of madness the sane moments here could make the difference.

That's only if there's somebody to listen to the very quiet voice of reason that continually gets drowned out by the volume and shrillness of all the other Messages. I am not confident in that prospect one bit, and in fact I'd bet against it.

[Barleymower]

As for trans people if only they had not been unfair. It wasn't fair to allow ex-men to compete with born women. It wasn't fair to put ex-men in women's prisons. That really gave the rad fems something to complain about.

I find it terribly unfair that such things get reflected on the trans-community rather than on the people that actually made the decisions (who are almost certainly not trans). Most trans-people were never asked if they wanted to compete in a sport and who should be put in which prison, they just want to live their lives, just like us.

But of course, it's hard to get angry at the white Anglo-Saxon person who approved the transfer, so people just get angry at trans-people they don't know and have never met.

I'm with you 100%. Nearly all of the trans folk I've met have been lovely and so good to see them happier with who they are. It's all the judgmental ignorant people that p... annoy me.

[Barleymower]

Indeed, and these two need to be decoupled

Yes but we all in this together and also not a good idea to be too rigid in our ideals.

The main problem for MIS is that whilst women seem to support a man's decision to wear skirts, hardly a one of them are willing to embrace that man in a romantic relationship,

Younger people are embracing freedom more. Too late for us though.

That's only if there's somebody to listen to the very quiet voice of reason that continually gets drowned out by the volume and shrillness of all the other Messages. I am not confident in that prospect one bit, and in fact I'd bet against it.

It is said that if you want people to listen, speak quietly. Maybe someone is listening, maybe we are having more affect than we realise.

[STEVIE]

It is said that if you want people to listen, speak quietly.

......or, "actions speak louder than words".
If all the indoor/ closeted skirt wearing men were actually visible, I reckon the why don't question could possibly be null and void.
As for the "trans" thing, I don't care as long as it has no affect on how I choose to live my life.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

Steve that would make such a difference. Men / we are our own worst enemy.

[jamie001]

Steve that would make such a difference. Men / we are our own worst enemy.

Men have been conditioned to embrace the heard mindset since they were old enough to walk. They are told at that age how to be a man. On the other hand, women are allowed to figure out for themselves how to be a women.

Men are heard animals that cannot tolerate being isolated from the herd. Until homophobic fathers stop teaching their sons homophobic nonsense, the problem will persist for many generations to come.

[crfriend]

Men have been conditioned to embrace the heard mindset since they were old enough to walk. They are told at that age how to be a man. On the other hand, women are allowed to figure out for themselves how to be a women.

Then why, in most cases, do so many women get it so wrong? Environmental testosterone?

Men are heard animals that cannot tolerate being isolated from the herd. Until homophobic fathers stop teaching their sons homophobic nonsense, the problem will persist for many generations to come.

Most retain the indoctrination because when delivered at a very early age it's powerful and it sticks. The smart ones eventually figure out that they were fed a bunch of malarkey, got a very raw deal out of it, and start behaving like actual men and some join the trans-* brigade in an attempt to game the system.

By the by, hearing and herding are two very different things.

[dressedbrewer]

To the second point, we're now beginning to see the start of the backlash against the trans-* types because most people have tired of the antics, the shrillness, and the constant "in your face" attitude. Now, more than ever, we need to distance style choices from even a whiff of anything sexual.

So we have two distinct problems. MIS are thin on the ground and trans hatred. As you say MIS are vanishingly thin. There has to be a good reason for this. Apparently men really like women in women's clothes but they have zero interest for themselves in the fine clothes. They are men and can't abide anything feminine for themselves. Women on the other hand can be masculine if they feel like it or feminine as the mood takes them. The point being is its a ridiculous lie and should be changed. That's why we are so thin on the ground - fear.

Unfortunately it is going to be very difficult to separate clothing from sexuality. Pink, flowery patterns, lace, skirts, dresses, and a whole lot more have beed associated with females and non straight males for a long time, rightly or wrongly. Any man embracing traditionally female clothing and patterns is going to be considered at least somewhat on the non straight scale of sexuality (not that there is anything wrong with that). It took a long time for salmon to be accepted as a male colour!

I'm not sure where the lie is. Most men don't want to be considered feminine, that is not a lie, just fear. Likewise, I think that women don't want to encourage their male partners to dress in traditionally female attire out of fear - fear of what people will think of them and their partner.