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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -DRAG.html

People up in arms over a childrens book featuring a boy in drag... it seems Fasion Freedom is now 'Woke'

Funny thing is that I am not a patron and have only been in a Pizza Hut once, many years ago.
The comment though, "Let Children be Children" gets on my ****ing nerves!
When I was five or so, and yes, I can remember that far back, I'd have loved to have been presented with such a book.
I think that so called grown-ups forget that the little folk have eyes, ears and minds of their own.
Perhaps, they are also frightened that they could not cope with the questions either, sad really!
Steve.

It seems that the USA has the same Neanderthal level of readership as the U.K. does.

I am a bit ambivalent here.

If I had a boy says he wants to wear a dress, I would take him down to the store and invite him to choose whichever one he likes from the section which would usually cater for girls of his age. I would even by him shoes to match. He could then wear it when and where he liked and to his heart's content. There is absolutely no reason why dresses (and skirts, tights, longer hairstyles, ribbons, etc) should be the exclusive preserve of females any more than trousers should be the exclusive preserve of males.

Drag, however, isn't quite the same thing. It is often an element of a VERY adult scene. It has strong sexual connotations and so it would not be something I would think is appropriate or healthy for a child.

And no, Ray, I am not a Neanderthal or Homo erectus or Australopithicus.

Stu

Stu wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:08 am Drag, however, isn't quite the same thing. It is often an element of a VERY adult scene. It has strong sexual connotations and so it would not be something I would think is appropriate or healthy for a child.

Drag is a presentation art form. There is a related adult scene, but what's happening here is that adults are projecting that onto the children. The book doesn't refer to it (AFAICT), and even if it did they wouldn't understand it. There are plenty of children's books where boys and girls like each-other and there are few things with more sexual connotations than that.

Bit of a double standard I think.

I have a colleague at work who mentioned that his male kid liked wearing his older sister's princess dresses. I sometimes wonder how my life would've been with a sister.

(I actually got triggered by the double-t in "boycott", it's unusual. So I looked up the etymology: it's apparently the name of an actual person against which the tactic was effectively used.)

rode_kater wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:33 am I sometimes wonder how my life would've been with a sister.

I had five and it didn't make my life any easier.
It just made my earliest "experiments" more accessible but risky too.
Nobody would have been laid-back about me wishing to don some of their glad rags.
As for "Drag", I know what it means now but as a kid it simply meant dressing like a female.
In my ignorance and naivete, that also meant that it was one or the other, binary, black or white!
My life became a hell of a lot easier when I saw through that particular fallacy.
Stu, I also wonder how many parents would willingly take a boy shopping for skirts and dresses?
I'd wager, not very many.
Steve,

STEVIE wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:35 pm Stu, I also wonder how many parents would willingly take a boy shopping for skirts and dresses?
I'd wager, not very many.

You are probably right, Steve.

Am I wrong about that? What about you? If your son of, say, ten years old, said he would like to own and wear a dress, how would you respond?

Just wondered.

If I had a son who wanted to wear a dress or skirt I would make sure he had one to wear! I would encourage him to explore all modes of dress.

It's worth recalling that we here are a tiny subset of men in a small subset of cultures in humanity, Just sayin'.

crfriend wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:03 pm It's worth recalling that we here are a tiny subset of men in a small subset of cultures in humanity, Just sayin'.

Sure we are Carl and obviously biased in our views on certain matters too. However, I can think of many male acquaintances, not friends, who would react rather badly to the boy/skirt/dress scenario. Alas, I am actually related to a few too.

Stu wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 5:27 pm What about you? If your son of, say, ten years old, said he would like to own and wear a dress, how would you respond?

My son is now 34 and an old married man Stu. When he was about 12, he asked this question, "If a man has sex with a transsexual (female), is it gay"?
There followed a discussion of some duration and WE came to the conclusion, no but that it was complicated. The media at the time was awash with the Hayley character in Coronation Street.
Had he asked the same sort of question regarding clothes, we would have had a similar discussion in the first instance. Pros and cons, covered, it would then be his choice whether he went ahead. Point is, not an instant trip to John Lewis Childrenswear for a whole new wardrobe. If he also got his Mother on board, then I would have reckoned he could face anything which the wider world could throw at him. His life thus far has not given me cause to believe otherwise. If he ever fathers children, I believe that he would react in similar fashion too.
Steve.

Interesting that parents will take the youngest of children to pantomine where the main lady is a man, vice-versa and drag is essential; yet do a flip if their child wants to look like that...and of course panto isn't sexual!

Neither are drag artistes in pubs. Sure they have filthy mouths but they aren't there as a turn-on. I'm not a fan of drag artistes generally, some are genuinely entertaining but I'd just rather have a good looking transvestite on stage than drag.

STEVIE wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:43 am
My son is now 34 and an old married man Stu. When he was about 12, he asked this question, "If a man has sex with a transsexual (female), is it gay"?

My answer to that would have been a resounding NO, he is not gay. He is straight.

STEVIE wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:43 amHad he asked the same sort of question regarding clothes, we would have had a similar discussion in the first instance. Pros and cons, covered, it would then be his choice whether he went ahead. Point is, not an instant trip to John Lewis Childrenswear for a whole new wardrobe.

I agree that a discussion is needed, Steve, starting with the question WHY? Why do you want to wear a dress? He may have gender issues - or it may be just a matter of him wanting to explore clothing options like most of us on here. Assuming it is the latter, the only cons I can see is the reaction of others. When and where does he propose to wear such a garment? How will he deal with negative attitudes and comments from others? You are also right that his mum also has a say in this. I am certainly not proposing to race down to John Lewis etc on the basis of a whim. I was contrasting my reaction to a boy expressing such a wish from the perspective of a fashion option as opposed to participating in a drag act, which is the context of the story.

One interesting thing I note from this conversation is that a basic set of facts is left missing or misunderstood. Was the book explicitly referencing "drag" or is it a potentially faulty assumption on somebody's part or a wilful misrepresentation of fact by the Daily Wail? Both are possible and both seem probable in this case.

Drag is something that's explicitly adult. Children aren't going to process it well as they have no real frame of reference at that point in their lives. Children, however, do process the inherent unfairness of the double-standard when it comes to clothing options and they process that quite well and accurately. This sets up certain curiosities on the part of the male and then the double-standard causes problems at all levels -- including at the adult layer who have likely internalised and accepted the unfairness as simply "part of what is". Children have to be coerced into the acceptance of unfairness, thus all the hissing and spitting about things that just shouldn't matter.

How many times did we -- as children -- lament the fact that girls could wear pretty, flowy things and boys could not? They were forbidden, and the more stubborn of us still forbid them for ourselves for our entire lives. It's silly on the face of it, is it not?

This is the blurb on the book Carl
When a child dresses in drag to compete in a neighborhood costume competition, they become B. B. Bedazzle! A key part of B.B. Bedazzle’s ensemble is a wig called Wig. Together they are an unstoppable drag queen team! But Wig feels inadequate compared to the other, bigger wigs. When Wig flies off B. B.’s head, he goes from kid to kid instilling confidence and inspiring dreams in those who wear him:
Wig remembers what wigs can do.
Wig brushes the world,
bolder,
brighter
hues.
Wig hears whispered wishes…
and turns them into
something true.
The bigger their dreams,
the bigger Wig seems.
This wonderful read aloud celebrates the universal childhood experience of dressing up and the confidence that comes with putting on a costume. And it goes further than that, acknowledging that sometimes dressing differently from how we were born is how we become our truest and best selves.
My take is still that "Drag" has different connotations to different people. Danny la Rue was very famous when I was a kid but I never saw him or his act as any kind of inspiration or role model.
Mine came from my female peers and sisters to some extent and yes it was envy of the styles that were exclusively theirs.
I have had that feeling since I was probably 5 or so and I have no idea what the catalyst was but certainly not a book or any kind of external suggestion.
As I have said before, I was never expressly forbidden but I knew perfectly well that there would have been dire repercussions had I been caught.
Simple fact is that a lot of boys are still stuck in that darkness. This discussion certainly underscores that.
Steve.

crfriend wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 4:59 pm ...is it ... wilful misrepresentation of fact by the Daily Wail?

In anything relating to gender, especially transgender, the absence of wilful misrepresention by that vile rag would be unprecedented.