skirtcafe.org

My grandaddy would roll over in his grave...

https://www.reddit.com/r/NonBinary/

And I just think that is funny as hell!

I am so inspired by these youngsters!

I’ve spent some time in that sub, and I see it as the opposite of inspiring. Reading the posts, trying to understand what’s going through some of those poster’s minds, I just see confusion. Some of them know who they are - but a lot, if not most, are reaching out for an answer that just isn’t there. A lot have weirdly binary ideas about masculinity/femininity (for a non-binary sub), some come off as creepy (the ones asking for snuggles in particular), and others need a real human to talk with - not some random internet stranger.

I’m not condemning them - and I realize they probably don’t have a real human to talk with. It just… reddit feels like the wrong place for the kind of questions that are asked there.

I have mainly spent time there for outfit inspirations (r/MensSkirts posts often appear there), but most of the time it’s too “I need to present as a girl”. For whatever reason that rubs me the wrong way and I want to scream at the computer “be yourself, not some fake caricature of a woman”. I realize it’s much more complex than that… but then I wonder how much of societal pressure causes this, how much of it is someone being their “authentic self”. Obviously on those last points my own sartorial choices are greatly influenced by how women wear skirts, and I often struggle with what that means… but it’s the classic chicken and egg scenario, which comes first - gender or clothing preferences and for me it’s clothing that directs my interests.

Yeah, I've tried hanging out in enby themed groups and found I just couldn't connect to the problems/questions/interests those people have. Likewise for crossdressing groups - they all end up turning into either fetish discussions or trans discussions.

For a long time I only felt at home in /r/MenSkirts, but a while back someone created a GenderNonconforming subreddit which is where I spend most of my time nowadays.

We are all people first. Let's look at this in other societal contexts other than gender. I was born white. I did not choose my race. Therefore, I'm supposed to like rock music over hip-hop, as if my skin color determines my musical preference. We have been taught by society to associate with the traits of others who possess our birth characteristics. There is nothing in my genetic makeup that should make me averse to hip-hop music. And there is nothing in my genetic makeup that should make me prefer skirts over pants.

I have lately heard phrases used like "people who are pregnant" or "people who menstruate". At first this annoyed me as PC overdone. Then I realized that this is actually accurate. A woman is a person first, then a woman. Therefore, some people menstruate and some people can get pregnant. We are all people first. Accordingly, some people were slaves and other people owned slaves. Some people have blue eyes and some have brown eyes. Some people are blondes and some are brunettes. Some people prefer chocolate ice cream and some prefer vanilla ice cream.

And some people wear skirts, dresses, heels and pantyhose and some people wear pants, flat shoes, and socks.

The world isn't such a complicated place after all if we think of ourselves as people first.

Coder wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:02 pm I’ve spent some time in that sub, and I see it as the opposite of inspiring. Reading the posts, trying to understand what’s going through some of those poster’s minds, I just see confusion. Some of them know who they are - but a lot, if not most, are reaching out for an answer that just isn’t there. A lot have weirdly binary ideas about masculinity/femininity (for a non-binary sub), some come off as creepy (the ones asking for snuggles in particular), and others need a real human to talk with - not some random internet stranger.

I’m not condemning them - and I realize they probably don’t have a real human to talk with. It just… reddit feels like the wrong place for the kind of questions that are asked there.

I have mainly spent time there for outfit inspirations (r/MensSkirts posts often appear there), but most of the time it’s too “I need to present as a girl”. For whatever reason that rubs me the wrong way and I want to scream at the computer “be yourself, not some fake caricature of a woman”. I realize it’s much more complex than that… but then I wonder how much of societal pressure causes this, how much of it is someone being their “authentic self”. Obviously on those last points my own sartorial choices are greatly influenced by how women wear skirts, and I often struggle with what that means… but it’s the classic chicken and egg scenario, which comes first - gender or clothing preferences and for me it’s clothing that directs my interests.

I agree 100%.

Interesting. I spent quite a while on the crossdressing reddit and found it quite interesting, until I figured it wasn't what I was looking for. That's when I stumbled on SkirtCafe. In retrospect I think the switch for me happened around the time of the Tumblr exodus almost three years ago (Tumblr started banning adult content, but the filters trapped a lot of crossdressing as well which caused many such users to flee to places like reddit). The user count exploded and I didn't feel at home anymore.

I agree that what you see there is not exactly inspiring. However, there's a lot of people (especially young people) there who have no-one else to share this side of themselves with and if such a forum gives them the comfort of knowing they are not alone that makes it valuable. If they only hang around for a while and figure out it's not for them, they can leave. All part of the journey of life.

It also attracts the occasional question from boyfriends/girlfriends/partners/parents who discover/are confronted by crossdressing and asking for advice. They get pretty good advice so I think overall it's a force for good.

Who hasn't had questions in their teens?
There have been many freedoms lost since I was a kid but there have also been a lot gained; Embracing the freedom to express oneself and experiment with the unconventional is good, even if it doesn't always solve some personal quandry.
I think young people like these will be the ones who eventually make skirt wearing by all genders unremarkable. I doubt that old fellas will swing it.

I really like the questions that Coder raised. Probably because they’re unanswerable. Which takes me to my standard answer for most of life’s questions, “It’s easier if you don’t think about it too much. So go with your gut!”

Early in that series of photos was a fellow in a black t-shirt and a grey, plaid, pleated miniskirt. Who asked, “Long hair or short?” My first response was long because he was drop dead GORGEOUS! But on further thought, I feel he should go with the look that makes him feel the best. Or the best about himself. That presentation will more accurately represent who he is.

So, Coder (And any of you who are asking the same questions as Coder), don’t look to my pictures or the pictures on Reddit for your answers; look in your full length mirror. But not until you’ve gathered up a range of items starting with what you now have because you think it’s sufficiently masculine to the most outlandish outfit you could just barely imagine wearing if you half-drunk and on your way to a party with the theme of “Outrageous, Subversive Outfits.”

Don’t want to spend good money on clothes you probably won’t wear? Then don’t! Go to a thrift shop and take some such outfits into a dressing room and try them on. Don’t even worry about being able to zip them up, if you can just get them up on your shoulders and across your chest so you can get the idea of how it would look if it fit, that will do.

Pro tips: Wear a neutral colored skirt and a shirt so you can try on skirts, blouses and dresses.

Wear pantyhose so you can try on heels with the outfits.

Don’t worry about what the help will think, they’ve seen it all already and are there to help people buy clothes.

Not to be too elitist, if one of them gives you a hard time, you can always rationalize it away with that stock phrase, “Well what do you expect for minimum wage?”

Coder wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:02 pm I’ve spent some time in that sub, and I see it as the opposite of inspiring. Reading the posts, trying to understand what’s going through some of those poster’s minds, I just see confusion. Some of them know who they are - but a lot, if not most, are reaching out for an answer that just isn’t there. A lot have weirdly binary ideas about masculinity/femininity (for a non-binary sub), some come off as creepy (the ones asking for snuggles in particular), and others need a real human to talk with - not some random internet stranger.

I’m not condemning them - and I realize they probably don’t have a real human to talk with. It just… reddit feels like the wrong place for the kind of questions that are asked there.

I admit to not really diving into any of the threads, I mostly just stumbled on to it from general internet web-surfing. I just liked the photos.

But after reading your comment I did go back and look into a few of them deeper. I didn't really see anything major that jumped out at me as being creepy, but again, I didn't go over the whole board with a fine toothed comb either.

At any rate, I often resolve as I get older to try not to become like my father and become a "crotchety old man". I try to keep perspective in mind, in the eyes of my grandfather (either side) we're all an equal abomination, from the kilt enthusiast of "X marks the Scot", to us here at skirtcafe, to the "tumblr snugglers"- oh yes, per them, we're all going to hell!. I am completely certain that if either were to see me today, I'd be disowned and banned from the "family home" in a hot minute.

Also I'm fully well aware that the great unwashed wants no part of us "normal men in skirts" given that I've yet to meet too many people who are willing to be seen with me in public. So to them, we're all "creepy pedophiles".

I just think we should keep that in mind before we perch ourselves too high on a pedestal. And don't forget, we all were young and still finding our way at one point... hell, I'm still finding my way at midage!

I think the older people get the more we tend to believe that our "place in time" is the gold standard to what should be considered "normal". I don't think this is sinister or evil, it just think it's a normal course of human nature. And if one pushes the envelope then he/she is righteous for doing so, but woe unto anyone who pushes it farther! That's a textbook example of "self righteousness" and all would do well to avoid that vice.

We're no better than they are, we're all just trying to find our way in the dark. Some of us just already know where a few of the hidden walls are, as well as where some of the broken glass is on the floor.

I have mainly spent time there for outfit inspirations (r/MensSkirts posts often appear there), but most of the time it’s too “I need to present as a girl”. For whatever reason that rubs me the wrong way and I want to scream at the computer “be yourself, not some fake caricature of a woman”. I realize it’s much more complex than that… but then I wonder how much of societal pressure causes this, how much of it is someone being their “authentic self”. Obviously on those last points my own sartorial choices are greatly influenced by how women wear skirts, and I often struggle with what that means… but it’s the classic chicken and egg scenario, which comes first - gender or clothing preferences and for me it’s clothing that directs my interests.

I understand how you feel. This is a classic example of our heart and our logic (or perhaps our own ego) in conflict. You clearly realize that "Coder doesn't set the gold standard", but your ego "screams" otherwise. I get it, and please don't take this as me talking down to you, I only point this out as I too battle these demons. Thus, I try to endeavor to simply let them live and find their way, and if they need help, let them ask, and I'll do what I can, while fully well realizing that any help I might render would be the blind leading the blind...