skirtcafe.org

moonshadow wrote:I've finally just reached the conclusion that all women are genderless. It doesn't matter what they do, what they wear, how the wear it, or where they wear it.. they will ALWAYS be women. (or girls in the case of the article)

It seems that the going trend is:

Woman wears trousers: still a woman
Women wears skirts: still a woman
Man wears trousers: still a man
Man wears anything else: he's now a transgender woman.

So we are back to two genders, cis-men, and everyone else.
****

You just can't be a free man (or boy) in a skirt or dress. Nooooo! You can only be free if you adopt the transgender label... yet WOMEN DON'T HAVE TO! I call bull sh!t!

Moonshadow, I must say !Well said!

I am concerned with the educational systems and their push for "gender Neutral"
I believe it will have a lot of negative effects, children at that age are very vulnerable, and easily messed up by stuff like this.
It's important for boys to be boys and girls to be girls, not give them the option to pick, or the insecurity of not knowing where they belong.
I never thought I would say something like this being, a skirt lover at a young age.
kids make bad decisions all the time, how many of us wanted to be a rock star, firefighter, astronaut, sports figure "when I grow up"
didn't happen. eat candy or cake for breakfast, lunch and dinner. At for me at age 6,My favorite subject in school was "Recess" I didn't want to get married,"girls had cooties" and wanted to be a painter. at 40 I'm married, second best decision of my life .
At age 6, me and my cousin traded underware, Having on her panties opened a Pandora's Box that I have never been able to get out of yet.
Thankfully I had a mother and family that set me on the right path. I can only imagine where I would be if I were in the school system today. with teachers and staff saying honey if you want to wear skirts and be a girl, you can sweetie its ok. I wouldnt be the man and husband I am today, I am proud to be a man and husband.
Im a red blooded American male Ammo, camo and a little lace, I'd look up a womans skirt given the chance, but then I'd tell her what's fair is fair, mam you can look up my skirt now too.

Mishawakaskirt @2wayskirt

moonshadow wrote:...You just can't be a free man (or boy) in a skirt or dress...

Sure you can. Just do it. I thought you were past that.

Caultron wrote:

moonshadow wrote:...You just can't be a free man (or boy) in a skirt or dress...

Sure you can. Just do it. I thought you were past that.

The comment was meant to illustrate a point. However that said, even in my life, as free as I come off, there are still restrictions. Though not many, granted. Still, not as free as our female friends. Maybe someday, and with any amount of luck it we won't need the "transgender" label to make it so.

If I had my way, I'd wear skirts all of the time, I wouldn't even own a pair of trousers. As it stands now, I've only got two pairs, and one pair of bibs. The bibs are in the closet, and one pair or trousers is in the trunk of the car, the other is in the box on the truck, just in the event I need a pair of pants on the road somewhere. (I frequently wear skirts not suitable for changing tires in)

moonshadow wrote:...even in my life, as free as I come off, there are still restrictions. Though not many, granted. Still, not as free as our female friends. Maybe someday, and with any amount of luck it we won't need the "transgender" label to make it so...

Although the transgender liberation has helped our cause, I see it as a parallel development and not something we're directly involved with.

I think gender identity, like sexual orientation, is established at an early age, though because of socialization and peer/familial/societal expectations, often not acted upon until a much later age. We know it is far easier to reconcile the body to the gender one KNOWS himself/herself to be, rather than vice versa. And the earlier one becomes comfortable with his/her gender identity, the more successful a transition will be. With hormonal therapy, sex characteristics can be arrested pre-puberty and thats makes a great difference when one transitions. So I have to disagree with you, Mishawaka, that gender-neutrality is very important at a young age. It also breaks down sex role expectations and allows an unpretentious relationship between the sexes even for gender-sex conforming kids. I think the world could benefit from more cross-chromosomal understanding and empathy, and the reduction of gender-role expectations which impose limits upon the capacity of a person to fully develop his/her talents. We want what's best for children, and that is their natural development as they know themselves. To shove a child into a box where he/she knows he/she doesn't belong is cruel and immoral, and simply counter-productive for society. You cant truly make someone who knows their gender disagrees with their genitalia accept the contrary without forcing unhealthy inhibition, and creating individuals who deny themselves validation of their own deepest natures.

mishawakaskirt wrote:I am concerned with the educational systems and their push for "gender Neutral"
I believe it will have a lot of negative effects, children at that age are very vulnerable, and easily messed up by stuff like this.
It's important for boys to be boys and girls to be girls, not give them the option to pick, or the insecurity of not knowing where they belong.

Boys will be boys and girls will be girls and some will be neither - and none of this should be forced on them because of what it says on their birth certificate. What really messes up a child is being forced to live as something they know they are not: they know where they belong but adults keep telling them we know better.

mishawakaskirt wrote: ...
...honey if you want to wear skirts and be a girl, you can sweetie its ok.
....

This is "gender neutrality" and sexist.

...honey if you want to wear skirts (and be a boy), you can sweetie its ok.

This would be gender neutrality.

Why should everyone wear a "uniform" to show their gender?

As someone who has never raised a boy, only a girl, I can tell you that I've never really experienced what it's like to rear a child into a gender role, as girls can typically wear whatever they want without social stigma. Growing up Amber enjoyed skirts and dresses, however as she got to be a teenager she switched over to trousers and shorts. It was seamless and no one batted an eye. We just let her choose her style for the most part.

... then again, she's a girl so it was much easier.

And that's how it should be for a boy. Clothes should be genderless. If he wants to wear skirts and dresses it should be treated the same way as when a girl wears trousers or shorts. No biggie. The hard part is convincing the child that he doesn't have to be a girl, or "trans-girl" to wear the clothes of this choice, because he WILL be confronted by a society that will insist that he does! For children, I can see this being somewhat confusing. Hell, most adults can't seem to wrap their minds around it.

Hooray for gender neutral uniforms. Maybe everyone should try both versions for a while to see what they like best.

I might be wrong, but I have trouble approving of the transgender movement. Whether that's right or wrong is not what I want to make a point about here.

I think there could be a lot less felt need to attempt sex change if we had much less rigid sex roles. Males should be able to wear (or not wear) any items of clothing they like, as should females. I may think a bra looks silly, but I don't really like them on women either; I still shouldn't look down on those who wear them. Men should be able to be compassionate, sensitive, and be interested in cooking and sewing. Women should be welcome to be competent in math and science and problem solving. I don't care for deception about one's sex, but if we were all free to be who we want to be, there were much less strict roles we were expected to fill, if there were true equal rights and respect for all, who'd need to try to change?

It's true that the news media have focused on transgender issues lately, and that includes both children and adults wearing clothes not associated with their physical gender. And some acceptance of that apparently has leaked over to us, which is fine. I'll take whatever acceptance I can get.

But for sure, no one should get a sex change just to gain approval for wearing a skirt.

Jim wrote:I might be wrong, but I have trouble approving of the transgender movement.

I'm not sure what you mean by "movement". Transgender people exist in the same way that people with brown eyes or ginger hair or left-handedness exist; the main change is that they are now coming out in the open and asking to be allowed to be themselves as far as possible.

First we stopped burning left-handers as 'sinister', then we stopped forcing them to write right-handed and just let them get on with their lives - now we actually make left-handed or either-handed versions of things to avoid disadvantaging them. This is what transgender people want: freedom from persecution and to be at no disadvantage compared with the rest of us.

The reason why there might appear to be a movement afoot is because there is a huge backlog of people who should have transitioned years ago but were afraid to do so; they are also the ones who have endured a lifetime of watching their bodies irrevocably 'poisoned' by Testosterone and are more noticeable when they eventually do transition. With a change in society's attitudes, the flood gates have opened and transpeople of all age groups are surging through. When the backlog has cleared and we actually listen to children, most of whom are quite clear about their gender, and start helping them as soon as possible, there will be a steady trickle of unremarkable transitions at puberty and very few adult transitions at all.

Then we shall wonder what all the fuss was about.

Jim wrote:...I have trouble approving of the transgender movement...

Why is that?

My only question or concern about transgender people is the proportion of MtF compared to FtM. I don't have any accurate statistics, but believe MtF outnumber FtM somewhere in the order of 10:1. Why is this?

Is the possible reality that genuine MtF are in similar numbers to FtM but, because of societal pressures, the remainder of men who simply wish to wear a skirt, high heels, underwear, etc, figure the only option is to present themselves with a female alter ego? I'm no expert, but does it take a genius to add the numbers up? Maybe I'm reading too much into this!

First off, Pelmut, your posts were very articulate and complete. Thank you.

I don't think the proportion of MtF is 10x the FtM transgenders. But I'm sure it is weighted toward MtF, just as there are about twice as many gay men as lesbians.

I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't be surprised about the greater latitude in personal and emotional expression allowed to females.

Hence, the need for true gender neutrality in kids' and adults' clothes. Having been a crossdresser and during that period gotten to know lots of transsexuals, I have to say that as stupid as it sounds, there did seem to be a tendency for fellows who were probably crossdressers who convinced themselves they were transsexuals because it seemed like the next logical step. Just as their were god alone knows how many of us who would been perfectly happy to skip all the bother and expense of wigs, make-up, padding and bras to crossdress if we felt it would have been socially acceptable to just wear the skirts and dresses we liked where and when we liked. Sounds cuckoo doesn't it? But that's what Western so-called civilization got to.

We're doing a WHOLE lot better 30-40 years hence. Well, most of us. Donald Trump fans, maybe not so much. But even most of them just want to be validated for who they are and can empathize with other people who aren't.

Society has a history of forcing square pegs into round holes.