skirtcafe.org

Peter v wrote:Very interesting remark Hockey skirt,

"This is a conflict between two groups
1) those who seek a fashion freedom that society respects, and
2) those who demand that society accept their personal fashion freedom"

What about:
3) those who know they have fashion freedom, take it, and hope ......

Everything you've just said is firmly encompassed in 2) - Sorry!

Peter v wrote:Where are the other members in this discussion, which is in my opinion very important, as by talking in depth, there may be finally issues cleared up where there may have been misunderstandings over.

Most will have seen the topic, "Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?" and not even bothered to open it. Why? Because, to them, going "Femme" is the very last impression they wish to give, especially to those around them, some of whom will most certainly have misgivings about their partner, father or friend adopting unbifurcated clothing as an 'option'. Wearing a skirted garment is not, by any stretch of their (or my) imagination, even vaguely 'a step towards feminisation', or which other cliched word you may choose. Not being perceived as even a little bit "femme", preferably by anybody, is the whole key to most participants' thinking. Or it has been ever since the then 'freestylers' left Tom's Cafe for pastures new. That split saved both factions then, methinks it would do the same now........

Peter v wrote:Where are the other members in this discussion < SNIP >

There have been 21 unique posters in this thread, that's a pretty big proportion of the active members here.

I suspect that many who have not posted in this thread have simply looked at how much they'd have to wade through first and decided they can't be bothered. "Femme" in the topic may have put some off, but I doubt it as I suspect that those who are least comfortable with that would either join in and vote / comment or have already stopped reading here for the time being.

Have fun,


Ian.

I just back from a four day conference and happened upon this "lively" discussion.

Is the SkirtCafe going "Femme"? I don't think so. Then what about all the discussions that are out on the boarders of "Macho"? I think that since skirts for men, (in our time in history and culture,) is uncommon, we must explore the boundries. It is in exploring the boundries that we discover what works, what doesn't work, what will promote our cause and what will hurt our cause.

As for me, I enjoy the posts here - find them very thought provoking - even though I don't post all that much. Just because I don't post, doesn't mean that I agree or disagree with what a person has stated in a particular posting.

But going "Femme"? I just don't see it. What I see is a group of men (and a few gals) who are willing to explore the boundries and push the limits and attain freedom of choice for everyone.

PatJ

merlin wrote:

Peter v wrote:Very interesting remark Hockey skirt,

"This is a conflict between two groups
1) those who seek a fashion freedom that society respects, and
2) those who demand that society accept their personal fashion freedom"

What about:
3) those who know they have fashion freedom, take it, and hope ......

Everything you've just said is firmly encompassed in 2) - Sorry!

Not quite, there is NO demanding. That is a negative way of expressing the want to be accepted, "forcing" others to accept. There is no forcing anybody. To force would be admitting that the public , all the "normal" public do not of themselves want to accept, which is not the case.
There is no demanding, normal people acting normal, no matter how they are dressed except the ultra extreme, no bondage, fettish etc, , all get the same respect any others get from the general public. As is the case with all people you do not know, no matter how they are dressed, there has to be a first contact to really get a feeling of the PERSON you have before you.

merlin wrote:

Peter v wrote:Where are the other members in this discussion, which is in my opinion very important, as by talking in depth, there may be finally issues cleared up where there may have been misunderstandings over.

Most will have seen the topic, "Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?" and not even bothered to open it. Why? Because, to them, going "Femme" is the very last impression they wish to give, especially to those around them, some of whom will most certainly have misgivings about their partner, father or friend adopting unbifurcated clothing as an 'option'. Wearing a skirted garment is not, by any stretch of their (or my) imagination, even vaguely 'a step towards feminisation', or which other cliched word you may choose. Not being perceived as even a little bit "femme", preferably by anybody, is the whole key to most participants' thinking. Or it has been ever since the then 'freestylers' left Tom's Cafe for pastures new. That split saved both factions then, methinks it would do the same now........

It is quite easy merlin, no matter what others do, as long as YOU are as "manly"as you wish to be in YUOR getup, then that is what you are and how people should treat you when they see you. It has no sense to hide behind the nonacceotance of discriminative people. I can ride a Harley without being seen as a Hell's angel by most, but I bet there are some very dumb asses out there who see every biker, harley or no, but especially Harley as some sort of extreme violent person, or perhaps Hell's Angel, whatever menaing that has.

Don't be bothered by the ignorance of some. Enjoy the respect you get from many. And men DO have hard and soft characters with everything in between. Skirt wearing is not femme. Even wearing all out women's clothing is not femme, but as everything has to have a name, then often all non very manly skirt wearing may be called femme, so F. what? Is that a crime? Heaven forbid if you are a Gay person Lock him up NOT! Don't be so small minded, I don't think you are, so don't write such garbage. The postings about femme are very demeaning in general, that is just the same as using the N word for dark skinned people. If anything we here at the forum should work together to ban out any apartheid thoughts, any discriminative mis impressions.

Who is affraid of the big bad wolf? or of femme? If you are not femme, in you dictionary meaning, why worry if others happen to be. Or are all men in suits gangsters, NOT, all well you can fill in the rest. So why be affraid if people would even think that? I see very narrow thinking behind the fear of the femme word. Open up, get real.
But everybody is fully entitled to his own meanings and is respected for that, if we agree or not.

Milfmog wrote:

Peter v wrote:Where are the other members in this discussion < SNIP >

There have been 21 unique posters in this thread, that's a pretty big proportion of the active members here.

I suspect that many who have not posted in this thread have simply looked at how much they'd have to wade through first and decided they can't be bothered. "Femme" in the topic may have put some off, but I doubt it as I suspect that those who are least comfortable with that would either join in and vote / comment or have already stopped reading here for the time being.

Have fun,


Ian.

If all those men who are so manly are so affraid of the word femme, It sure looks like THEY are the "" sissys "" here on the forum. Real men arent affraid of anything. Perhaps blind ignorance of the meaning of the word femme, to the public at large, and the meaning as used here, is keeping them from being able to integrate into the general skirting public here at the cafe. And if there are so many "manly" skirt wearers, then they in there sheer numbers will be the image of skirt wearers, not others. There is also a point at which every skirter has to decide to be at the self chosen mercy of every mad man, or be the man he is, and go skirted as he wants, and LIVE, whatever the result. Saying "if you go on the street dressed so, looking like that in your skirts, I won't wear my skirts any more" is just stupid.
I am sure not every man is seen as a GAY person, just because some men are. So why ant to disassociate with other men who dress somewhat more free than yourself? If you are in a club where women are also members, do all the men get treated as women?

Hi Peter,

Based on your reply I suspect that my meaning did not get through, so I'll restate:

1. Most of those who actually post here regularly have already said what they think in this thread. Few feel the need to repeat themselves.

2. Since most regular posters have already contributed here, the others who might post are less frequent contributors. These lower activity members are exactly the sort of folks who may not feel like reading this whole thread to see what it is about; it's just too long.

3. I DO NOT think that the word "Femme" in the title will have put many poster off. Points 1 and 2 above are (in my opinion) the more likely reasons for not posting in this thread.

Points 2 and 3 are more a response to Merlin's last post than to yours, his post was a reply to the question that you posed and I quoted.

I hope that clears up my last post.

Have fun,


Ian.

Peter v wrote: Not quite, there is NO demanding.

Of course you are! Forget skirts for a moment. If you dress, say, as a Goth, you're making a 'fashion' statement. You're in effect saying to the world, "Look at me - I'm different!" But you indeed demanding their attention, their acceptance. The same applies to any outfit 'out of the norm'.

Peter v wrote: That is a negative way of expressing the want to be accepted, "forcing" others to accept.

I agree! Totally!

Peter v wrote: As is the case with all people you do not know, no matter how they are dressed, there has to be a first contact to really get a feeling of the PERSON you have before you.

And therein lies the problem! It's all a matter of degree, of course. And where in the country/continent/world you might happen to be. I agree, it's all too easy to pre-judge folk on their (initial) appearance. But folk do. And will continue to do. And cross the road to the other side.