HockeySkirt wrote:I haven't decided how to vote yet, but offer some opinions. I have thought, from my personal perspective, as to what is 'too femme' for me.
Would I ask friends/family to visit SkirtCafe? : When asked about my kilt wearing, I have pointed friends/family towards XMarksTheScot, but I'd not point them to SkirtCafe. That decision is simply as I'd not be confident that a casual reader would conclude that my skirt wearing was perfectly normal from reading SkirtCafe, and 'femme' topics are part of the problem, whereas X-Marks successfully portrays itself a bunch of regular guys, doing normal stuff.
That said, often time the problem is not topics that discuss 'femme' clothing items, but the phrasing of many points with reference to femme or transgender terminology. A simple example is that many members point out that they used to be cross dressers, but then realised they really just like to wear skirts -- getting a friend/family member to read those intros has them thinking of whether I am/was a cross dresser, and it hurts my attempts to prove it's all quite normal, rather than aides it.
Do *I* feel more 'normal' reading SkirtCafe? : When I first started visiting these various forums around 2001/2002, I thought my feelings made me very odd. Reading the forums made me feel I was not alone, but it was reading about full-time heavyweights such as Hamish that boosted my confidence to get out and wear kilts and skirts -- he and others made it seem so normal and natural. The current balance of topics on SkirtCafe would not, I feel, have given me the same confidence that I got from Tom's Cafe in 2002. It was not that 'femme' topics were never discussed -- I recall the first page of the Tom's Cafe archive had an explicit discussion about whether it was ok to talk about skirts and nail varnish, and Tom's chiming in that nail varnish was on topic. The difference was the balance of topics. The volume on SkirtCafe is so much lower today than 2002-03 that one person's obsessions can seem to dominate.
Braveheart vs Freestylers -- was WPG right? : WPG started the braveheart vs freestyler debate (2001-ish I recall?). WPG's original point was often lost. People misunderstood him as saying that he did not agree with people wearing anything other than masculine kilts. It wasn't his point. His point was that acceptance was damaged by mixing a simple kilt/skirt message, with more extreme fashion freedom -- and many of us care about acceptance. It triggered enormous arguments. It's interesting to see what happened with X-Marks versus WPG's prediction. X-Marks started in 2004, and though formed independently, it was in reality a branch of Tom's Cafe kilt content -- It had Tom's Cafe format (vBulletin), its rules (play nice, no religion, no politics), and its core posters were ex-Tom's Cafe posters (Colin, Blue, Bubba, Graham, Hamish, etc). What is interesting is that once the freestyle (or 'femme') aspects were removed, kilt discussions exploded in size and activity. Kilt makers and kilt retailers signed up. Though it was not obvious prior to 2004, it's became clear that the femme/freestyle aspects of Tom's Cafe held the kilt forums back ,*IF* membership size and activity is considered progress.
Do I feel SkirtCafe is too 'femme'? : Given what I said above, it would seem the answer was a simple 'yes', but it's not. I like to wear masculine skirts, which some kilt wearers consider more femme than kilts. Sometimes I like to wear pantyhose under kilts/skirts, which some non-pantyhose wearers consider 'femme'. I consider nail varnish and panties too femme for my taste, but who am I to judge?
Some of my initial experiences with skirts bordered on cross-dressing. Decades ago I was encouraged to go to a costume party dressed as a school girl, and played field hockey wearing the official female skirted uniform for a charity fun event. The clothing was wonderful, but it took these online forums to sort out my thoughts afterwards -- I am not a cross-dresser, I just like skirts and hosiery. I mention this, as being able to discuss the 'femme' background to why we are here can be valuable information.
Bottom line is that I don't know how to vote here. I do feel that SkirtCafe will never been a strong force for acceptance whilst femme topics exist, but simultaneously defend the right of people to discuss those topics, and fully understand the need to discuss them -- why shouldn't SkirtCafe be that place?
I suspect there is a need in the community for a forum focused on masculine skirts (including kilts). Something unambiguously masculine enough that members will post more photos, or show it to friends and family. Something that brings the X-Marks level of acceptance and perceived normality of kilts to masculine skirts. I don't see that SkirtCafe has to be that place -- it can stay just as it is. But if such a place was to appear, and develop, it could significantly marginalize SkirtCafe in the same way X-Marks already marginalized SkirtCafe/Tom's Cafe (it took the majority of its pre-2004 members!).
At the end of the day, this is "Bob's Cafe" (and to a lesser extend "Bob & Carl's Cafe"). Any endeavor is going to be more successful if reflects the interests and desires of the owners. Do you guys wish it to be a all-inclusive debating forum and therapy stop, or a force for acceptance of men in skirts? I believe those two goals are exclusive. Both are good and honorable goals, and I'd support you in whatever decision you made.
My 2c worth.
HockeySkirt
Reacting in general and to Hockeyskirt’s most interesting post.
Thank you Hockey shirt, with your input it can go both ways, although I would ask, what is
“or a force for acceptance of men in skirts?” Or what is in your opinion “men in skirts”? is that the same type of thing that (real) kilted men are? ( real meaning for the clarity men who conform to the true rules about wearing a kilt, as men who wear a kilt otherwise fall again into another group)
I think: By the way, men who ridicule other men wearing anything other than a skirt in the kilt like way, i.e. very “”Manly”” (beginning to hate that term, for want of any better name), they are in my view doing precisely what often “”normal”” men from “the public” do when is seen or spoken about any man in anything other than those damned pants, and which WE men in skirts in turn justly all deplore. The ridiculing, not the pants.
Thus making them no better than the rest of the people who are discriminative and closed minded about practically everything.
I think: That is totally different to men who have other, differing, viewpoints and go into civilised discussion with other men (in skirts) to get to understand each other better, without having to concede to the other’s ways.
I think: To ACT AS IF men in anything other than the most manly skirted getups are a danger to them, be threatening, would be "acting precisely the same", "lowering themselves to the ways" as here in the Netherlands how some particularly foreign men act, most young men from Morocco, or with that background, but I am not 100% positive on that, and of course others, who are guilty of attacking verbally (like “HOMO!!”) and maybe even physically attacking any men they see in a skirt. Of which I have been victim of myself, of verbal insult.
I think: If there is no fear, for which there is no ground, then let us all behave as mature adults and have respectable discussions. ( by saying fear I would assume fear to it being detrimental to the cause
"cause" for men in skirts....
which I assume is meaning the very marginal narrow area of men being "manly" (
that word) dressed in neutral skirts with regards to the whole scale of possibilitys of how men dress themselves in skirted garments.
( to prevent agresive reactions, I do just love all manners of MEN in skirts, of which I think men in neutral skirts is also very good and for nearly all very suitable. )
I think: The problem lies not with the forum but with your friends who cannot read what is written and are apparently very biased. People who are truly respectful, and are really interested IN YOU, will not start out placing your activities in the furthermost corner, the most negative in their vieuw, to start with. And would ask for a explanation of things as they see them, by which you can then easily explain YOUR situation. It is all too easy to put the blame for the short sightedness or discriminative vieuws of others not genuinely interested, to the forum. If it comes down to that, even if being on a very manly skirting forum, then they may even not accept any man wearing a skirt at all, even if there are thousands of forums with only the most neutral “manly” men in skirts there.
I think: Buy a mobile phone these days, what can you not do with it? That doesn’t mean that you WANT to use all options? Does it? Do your friends then say, “O you WANT to email, route plan, SMS, even photograph digitally, etc etc “ ? DO YOU CARE even if they say that? NO because you know all you want is to be able to call emergency services if it is needed.
I think: The same applies as I see it to the (our) forum (our being the best place to be for MEN, MM EE NN wearing skirted garments, as men, but in all forms, diversity.)
I think: People have to realise that fashion FREEDOM is the issue, not any one type / form of “dress” (not a dress as such) It is the not seeing of that very essential point that gives way to misunderstanding. Acceptance must be of freestyle wearing. That is the easiest way to see things as an onlooker. Otherwise the onlooker or the person whom we (some) “want” acceptance from
will have to KNOW EVERY DAMNED type of skirted outfit in detail to be able only even to give it a name, not even mentioning if he or she would find that acceptable. That is Nigh impossible. But realising that men can and do wear skirted garments in many a varied way, “freestyling” for the public, is in my opinion the fastest, easiest way to get the “acceptance” that is appreciated. In all cases, the public will judge for themselves which aura you have on you, manly, feminine, whatever, even if you go in pants.
I think: It is their conception of what THAT means to them, and NOT only what you are wearing that matters. It is all too easy to think that if men only wear a neutral skirt and keep the rest as is, that you will then easily be “accepted” NOT. Not if the public has personal convictions of what is manly and what is anything else. You will still have to SHOW any other person who you are. Doing things any other way will only result in stopping with being different ALL TOGETHER.
I think: We, men, all men in skirts, should present ourselves as such, MEN wearing diverse forms of “dress” being nothing different to any other men, who I might say may be “disguised “ as ordinary men, but be truly anything else. If you are seen in an overall, who are you? If you are later seen in a skirt, WHO are YOU? No body else than the day you were born. That is the realisation that has to be brought about.
How do you see if a motorcycle rider is a Hell’s Angel or other like type of
person[/i]? By the bike he rides? By the leather jacket he is wearing? By his actions would be the best way.
I think: There is absolutely no reason to blame any amount of “other “ skirt wearing talk for the lack of input from the hard line macho (for want of a more true, friendly word) skirt wearers. If anything, there should be more active input from them as a reaction to their seemingly fears of becoming a minority on the forum. But that too is wrong, as every posting is one standing on it’s own. There is no judgment to which "sekt" that you belong. Every man gives HIS bit to the discussion. Is it that too not seen by some? Or am I too respectful and totally unbiased?