skirtcafe.org

phathack wrote:Cross-dressing has different meanings to different groups of people. In the loosest sense I'm a crossdresser because I wear womans skits, pants, leggings etc. However If you go to one of the cross dressing forums and read you will see that they are trying to look like the opposite sex and that's not what I'm doing. Since I'm not trying to look like a woman that would not make me a crossdresser under their definition of cross-dressing.

Exactly. Except I don't call skirts or anything else I like to wear "woman's". If they are mine, they are not "woman's", regardless of what their manufacturers or designers envisioned. We don't divide up any other store by sex/gender except clothing, so why should that be? Aside, perhaps, from convenience of finding size and cut to fit your body shape, which is really not an much of an issue with a skirt. Does anyone shop for food by sex? Does anyone buy lumber or garden fertilizer by sex? Gasoline? Televisions? Office supplies?

Anyway, it also goes to motivation, as the implication of the term 'crossdressing' is a practice leading to sexual arousal, which may or may not be the case with any of us. It unfortunately evokes for many the image of a closeted man secretly trying on lingerie. That association, right or wrong, is part of the sensitivity many of us have toward the term. From my own POV, I think the themes that propel our interest, as a special interest community, have far more to do with self image, and the way we translate mental images of style and beauty we admire, than with anything gratifyingly sexual. And let me not forget the ideas of comfort, and of "bomb-throwing" rebelliousness, lest anyone get upset, though, to me, those are simply side benefits.

I wear clothes. They are just clothes. I may appropriate several elements of clothing at the same time which are all unusual for a guy but I'm unmistakably male when wearing them. I feel no more or no less masculine - well maybe slightly more masculine, because I demonstrate independent thought and confidence. I don't see it as cross dressing but I'm sure others will see me and tick that box. I'm not concerned about their views.

grlyboy wrote:ah it was you then. by the way, i do not pad my hips. that is my natural body. and when we purchase skirts and other garments that is intended for ladies, ususally that body is going to be expressed more visibly. so i guess i have a feminine body from below the chest. sorry for offending by how i was born. i am not trying to start an argument, but i just want to say one thing in a very respectful manner. we ALL wear skirts here. some wear kilts. in western society, it is frowned upon. but we do it anyways. but it is all good. i cannot please everyone. and i must admit this is quite fun.and i did remove the picture even though i was told i did not have too. i am trying to be cordial. and no, you did not offend me. i will admit i was wearing. i cannot say that word. but my hips..no they are mine. feel free to message me. this is fun in a way and i am learning so much

Guilty, I was the one. Relieved you are not offended. Thank you for removing the picture even though the mods didn't require it of you. I say again, I have no issue with crossdressing, I have done it myself. It's not wrong, disgusting, illegal, or any other negative label you wish to attach. I have no problem with whatever your body form is, As I said, I wasn't certain about the hips, I'm probably of a similar build. There are some of the members here who also have a bit more up top naturally, than the average male, you are who you are, and I don't ask you to change. I only felt that it was not suited for this website and forum. Having had some time to think about it, I somewhat regret my post, I understand the pictures we post are not visible to the muggles, (non registered people viewing the forum) so it probably wouldn't really have any impact on how this website is viewed. I don't object to anybody having a bit of fun with wearing whatever they want, I do it too. I'm not into trying for a female outline, but I'm quite happy to shake up some very rigid attitudes on gender and gender roles.

Ray wrote:I wear clothes. They are just clothes. I may appropriate several elements of clothing at the same time which are all unusual for a guy but I'm unmistakably male when wearing them. I feel no more or no less masculine - well maybe slightly more masculine, because I demonstrate independent thought and confidence. I don't see it as cross dressing but I'm sure others will see me and tick that box. I'm not concerned about their views.

I have found, that while I feel I am a little more able to express myself in ways more typically considered feminine, (example, I am much more likely to compliment a female co-worker on her clothing, from a fabric point of view, males too, some times) I myself, am projecting more a masculine attitude, mostly because my confidence has sky-rocketed!

partlyscot wrote:

grlyboy wrote:ah it was you then. by the way, i do not pad my hips. that is my natural body. and when we purchase skirts and other garments that is intended for ladies, ususally that body is going to be expressed more visibly. so i guess i have a feminine body from below the chest. sorry for offending by how i was born. i am not trying to start an argument, but i just want to say one thing in a very respectful manner. we ALL wear skirts here. some wear kilts. in western society, it is frowned upon. but we do it anyways. but it is all good. i cannot please everyone. and i must admit this is quite fun.and i did remove the picture even though i was told i did not have too. i am trying to be cordial. and no, you did not offend me. i will admit i was wearing. i cannot say that word. but my hips..no they are mine. feel free to message me. this is fun in a way and i am learning so much

Guilty, I was the one. Relieved you are not offended. Thank you for removing the picture even though the mods didn't require it of you. I say again, I have no issue with crossdressing, I have done it myself. It's not wrong, disgusting, illegal, or any other negative label you wish to attach. I have no problem with whatever your body form is, As I said, I wasn't certain about the hips, I'm probably of a similar build. There are some of the members here who also have a bit more up top naturally, than the average male, you are who you are, and I don't ask you to change. I only felt that it was not suited for this website and forum. Having had some time to think about it, I somewhat regret my post, I understand the pictures we post are not visible to the muggles, (non registered people viewing the forum) so it probably wouldn't really have any impact on how this website is viewed. I don't object to anybody having a bit of fun with wearing whatever they want, I do it too. I'm not into trying for a female outline, but I'm quite happy to shake up some very rigid attitudes on gender and gender roles.

it is all good. i did not realize that the picture would cause a stir. i will refrain from the extra clothing in future posts. and i am not trying to make this that type of forum. i even had my name changed. when i joined, i did not fully realize what this forum was about. and truth be told, i kind of took it as a compliment to an extent.

And by extension......are we all transvestites?........after all it is just a different word with the same meaning exactly.

Now the cat is among the pigeons!

Derek

Derek Plattis wrote:And by extension......are we all transvestites?........after all it is just a different word with the same meaning exactly.

Now the cat is among the pigeons!

Derek

Sounds like an attempt of resuscitation of an anachronism.

Am I a cross dresser? Am I a transvestite? I guess that depends on whose mind you are in but in my own mind I am many many things. The one thing that I am not is anything that can be described with a single label.

Have fun (and try not to obsess about other people's opinions),


Ian.

Just before Christmas (and I'm sorry to be only just catching up on here) I gave a topic presentation to the counselling course I'm on about working with clients with Trans* issues. It's a huge topic for a 30 minute presentation and the more research I did, the harder it got (and I ended up over-running a lot on the day). Anyway, to help get a quick handle on the subject, I covered external presentation as being on a spectrum with some points as follows (some of which are entirely my own terminology and I admitted as much):
Recreational crossdressing
Often a one-off group bonding ritual, e.g. stag dos and festivals. Probably unlikely to come to counselling about this per se except if they feel they're enjoying it a bit too much perhaps.

Normalising Crossdressing
Those who are trying to normalise the wearing of typically female garments, particularly skirts, by men, in a masculine context.

Fetishistic Crossdressing
Not part of the spectrum I am talking about. Typically characterised as a man wearing women's underwear during sex, possibly as a requirement for achieving orgasm (which is technically what makes it fetishistic), Garment may be their partners or obtained elsewhere. This is more likely to relate to a number of other issues than gender or sexuality. Unlikely to assign the terms transvestite or crossdresser to themselves.

Transgender Crossdressing
Exclusively wearing clothes of the opposite sex, some or all of the time with the intention of “passing” i.e. being recognised as / assumed to be a member of the presented gender.

Drag Queen
A dry definition would be a man who dresses as a flamboyant woman in order to entertain others. It’s typically done for entertainment. There are also drag kings of course.

They're all the PowerPoint bullet points, I rambled on a bit too. Now, the above was all presented in a very specific context and as a segment of a wider presentation but overall it seemed to help most of the audience although you're obviously all welcome to disagree with me on my terminology. I was dealing with both gender and sexuality as part of it, complete with diagrams and everything, so a degree of simplification was unavoidable. I feel a bit like Ford Prefect defending having extended the entry on The Earth in the HHGTTG.

(Since we're in the UK, I was able to ignore the American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), which basically labels us all as deviants. US members may wish to "thank" the DSM for some of how they're viewed in their society.)

denimini wrote:

Derek Plattis wrote:And by extension......are we all transvestites?........after all it is just a different word with the same meaning exactly.

Now the cat is among the pigeons!

Derek

Sounds like an attempt of resuscitation of an anachronism.

I see no harm in revisiting an old debate. Peoples perceptions and opinions change and evolve over time in order to suit their own positions or the general climate.

Linguistically those two words are the same and they both refer to people who wear clothes normally related to the other gender. They do not specify the context or the purpose of doing so.

It is, therefore, (in my opinion), very difficult for any of us to argue that we belong to neither group or to one and not the other.

In the end labels may not be important to the individual but they are the mechanism which wider society,(perhaps in its ignorance), uses to categorise us.

Happy skirting,

Derek

floatingmetal wrote:Just before Christmas (and I'm sorry to be only just catching up on here) I gave a topic presentation to the counselling course I'm on about working with clients with Trans* issues. It's a huge topic for a 30 minute presentation and the more research I did, the harder it got (and I ended up over-running a lot on the day). Anyway, to help get a quick handle on the subject, I covered external presentation as being on a spectrum with some points as follows (some of which are entirely my own terminology and I admitted as much):

Recreational crossdressing
Normalising Crossdressing
Fetishistic Crossdressing
Transgender Crossdressing
Drag Queen

Of the lot, the only one that seems "new" in any sort of context is "Normalising", and I think this is a good thing as it gets people used to the idea that sometimes there's nothing behind it other than one's own sense of style.

(Since we're in the UK, I was able to ignore the American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), which basically labels us all as deviants. US members may wish to "thank" the DSM for some of how they're viewed in their society.)

Well, I'm in the US and the DSM is one of the reasons I want to remove the term "crossdressing" from the lexicon as it applies to men whom FM classes as "Normalising". While the APA has backed off a little bit in diagnosing any male who wears anything remotely associated with women as mentally ill -- and hence in need of being "fixed" -- it's still not got its head 'round the fact that sometimes there is no subtext; in this case, "a cigar is just a cigar". The current version has a clause in the definition of "fetishistic crossdressing" (which is the one most often "diagnosed") to the effect of "if the symptom does not cause the individual significant distress in his daily life, then the condition is usually not disagnosable". This lets guys like us off the hook for a formal sentencing to psychiatric care but still falls way short of recognising a cigar for what it is on the face of it and still allows the perceived stigma to continue as the observation is still referred to as a "symptom".

So, when folks here get the impression that my blood boils a little bit when the word "crossdress" (or variants) is raised here, the above is why. Since the word itself is flawed (by virtue of being non-transitive (i.e. if a=b then b=a where "=" (arithmetical equality) is transitive) as it never applies to women I find it deeply offensive. I would very much like to see it dropped onto the same pile as, say, the "N word" (which is liberally sprinkled throughout the satirical motion picture Blazing Saddles) for many of the same reasons.

I had not followed this thread, not being a subject that interested me, but having free time this morning, have now read through. As far as I remember it was Partlyscot that wrote that he thought the subject inappropriate to this forum, in so far as crossdressing seems imply dome deviant from mainstream sexual mores. Various contributors seem to be in agreement with this. I feel that this is a forum for men that don't like being confined to trousers (and may need the support of others in order to feel that they are not alone).

I'd like to ask a question : when you put on your unbifurcated garments, do you feel you are putting on women's clothes? I don't. I'm just getting dressed because, it is cold, or because nudity is not widely accepted. The people I like seem to be unworried, and the rest don't matter.

I've never been involved with cross- or trans- , and know little about the matter. I think my only contact was when I worked in a charity shop and among the regular customers were some examples. One, a quite ordinary, not very attractive man who looked for feminine clothing to dress up (in a cabaret show, afaik); another always in trousers, with a lot of effeminate mannerisms, searching for the same reason. A third man was always in women's clothes, styled hair, long skirts, baubles and beads, and VERY elegant, as well as polite and pleasant, with not a trace of the effeminate in either voice or manner. A fourth, just the opposite, always in a dress that looked a mess, uncombed, uncared for (could have been a woman, but there was a tell-tale bulge), rather rude, neither pleasant nor attractive. What logic could there be in putting four such different people in a singular category, cross-dressers?

Martin

Martin, in the beginning I thought of the skirts I was putting on as women's but now I feel that they're just normal in the same way as trousers/jeans are, although if you asked MOH she would say that my wearing a skirt is cross dressing. I would never class myself as a cross dresser and thus certainly not deviant. Unusual perhaps, maybe not normal, individualistic for sure. But then I am a member of our skirtcafe club and proud of it.

crfriend wrote:So, when folks here get the impression that my blood boils a little bit when the word "crossdress" (or variants) is raised here, the above is why. Since the word itself is flawed (by virtue of being non-transitive (i.e. if a=b then b=a where "=" (arithmetical equality) is transitive) as it never applies to women I find it deeply offensive. I would very much like to see it dropped onto the same pile as, say, the "N word" (which is liberally sprinkled throughout the satirical motion picture Blazing Saddles) for many of the same reasons.

This is another way of saying what I've reiterated a few times on this thread and throughout this site....

as it never applies to women I find it deeply offensive.

AGREED!

Enter the wall of FEMALE CROSSDRESSERS: (google images "women wearing men's clothes")
But HOW DARE we call it that!!! No! Society calls them hero's, pioneer's, free thinkers, sexy, goddess'es, you name it! Anything BUT CROSSDRESSER!!!

moonshadow wrote:
Enter the wall of FEMALE CROSSDRESSERS: (google images "women wearing men's clothes")
But HOW DARE we call it that!!! No! Society calls them hero's, pioneer's, free thinkers, sexy, goddess'es, you name it! Anything BUT CROSSDRESSER!!!

womenmenclothes.jpg

We have to acknowledge the success of women in changing "Society" views to more positive terms applied to a broader choice of clothing. It was achieved by a large number of women breaking convention and demanding acceptance. At present there are comparatively few of us men taking that stand and we won't achieve the same acceptance until a greater number break away from their restrictive conventions, for now we will remain like pioneers against "Flat Earthers" and suffer the derogatory terms.
Hence, more men wearing a broader variety of clothing, for whatever reason, will help achieve the same result of general acceptance and the term crossdresser will become meaningless and disappear altogether.