skirtcafe.org

Hi Ralph,
Clothes are just a designer's idea, they have no gender.
If it works, wear it, if it's comfortable, wear it again.
Steve.

Ralph wrote:

A transvestite wears a skirt *because* it is perceived by many people as women's clothing.
A man in a skirt wears it *despite* it being perceived by many people as women's clothing.

...Unfortunately I think I still manage to fall through the cracks somewhere in between. ...

As with nearly everything in life, there is a whole spectrum between those two defined points and most people will fall part way along it.

Have we come to any sort of agreement on a name for the definitely-not-transvestite skirt-wearing male? I don't think 'Cisvestite' would work for a number of reasons, in particular, because it still implies that certain clothes belong to certain genders; but has anyone come up with anything better?

pelmut wrote:Have we come to any sort of agreement on a name for the definitely-not-transvestite skirt-wearing male? I don't think 'Cisvestite' would work for a number of reasons, in particular, because it still implies that certain clothes belong to certain genders; but has anyone come up with anything better?

What's wrong with "bloke in a skirt"? That's nice and simple -- a "guy trait" -- as well as boldly plain and brutally honest.

crfriend wrote:What's wrong with "bloke in a skirt"? That's nice and simple -- a "guy trait" -- as well as boldly plain and brutally honest.

Suits me - for those times when such disambiguation is needed over "bloke" or synonym thereof. This, unlike trying to work with transvestite, is (near-)infinitely malleable as needed. Where further disambiguation is required, one can simply use the square instead of quadrilateral approach[1]: e.g. bloke in maxi-skirt; bloke in purple skirt; or bloke in kilt.

[1] Based on the principle that any square is a quadrilateral, but not all quadrilaterals are squares.

yes what would be wrong with just saying man in a skirt ?

crfriend wrote:

pelmut wrote:Have we come to any sort of agreement on a name for the definitely-not-transvestite skirt-wearing male? I don't think 'Cisvestite' would work for a number of reasons, in particular, because it still implies that certain clothes belong to certain genders; but has anyone come up with anything better?

What's wrong with "bloke in a skirt"? That's nice and simple -- a "guy trait" -- as well as boldly plain and brutally honest.

I was thinking of trying to find a single word that addresses the reason behind the situation, rather than just the situation itself. "B.I.S." accurately describes what the bystanders see, but it leaves them to draw their own conclusions about why it is being done - and the first (and only) word most of them think of is 'transvestite'.

The word 'transvestite' defines the dressing as 'across'; this could mean that the wearer is crossing the gender boundary, which is the exact opposite of what many blokes in skirts want to be seen as. It could also mean that it is the clothing which is crossing the gender boundary, which perpetuates the mistaken idea that clothing has a 'natural' gender. On both counts it is wrong, so it would be good if we could find an alternative word which addresses both of those issues and then work on getting it into general circulation.

On another axis, there are the words 'transgender' and 'cisgender' to describe the opposite ends of the spectrum, we need a pair of similar words to describe this spectrum from "feeling fully in my own gender despite wanting to wear clothes often associated with the opposite gender" (for comfort, for practicality or for whatever other reason) to "wanting to look or feel as much like the opposite gender as possible" (to express my 'other side' or for sexual kicks or for whatever other reason).

'Orthovestite' might be suitable for one end of the spectrum, but that still leaves 'transvestite' hanging around and begging to be used inappropriately for the other end. We need a replacement for it.


P.S. - 'Cacovestite'?

pelmut wrote:I was thinking of trying to find a single word that addresses the reason behind the situation, rather than just the situation itself. "B.I.S." accurately describes what the bystanders see, but it leaves them to draw their own conclusions about why it is being done - and the first (and only) word most of them think of is 'transvestite'.

Hmmm... possibly. Then again, I believe that were many of us here on the forum to look into a sartorial mirror of erised we would find skirts, and quite possibly other currently women's clothes being worn as a matter of course by both men and women. At that, the only purpose even for bloke in a skirt would be to aid in pointing out a particular bloke amongst several.

As for the Transgender/Cisgender, comparison, we have a case of fixed biological reference to give meaning to the terms. Last I checked, there is no such fixed reference in the realm of sartorial selection, leaving any word open to redefinition according to the whims of current fashion.

Regarding your postscript suggestion, a quick inspection of my Concise OED suggests that the prefix has a meaning I would not endorse. If I see something suitable I may well still adopt it, though.

Tor wrote:

pelmut wrote:I was thinking of trying to find a single word that addresses the reason behind the situation, rather than just the situation itself. "B.I.S." accurately describes what the bystanders see, but it leaves them to draw their own conclusions about why it is being done - and the first (and only) word most of them think of is 'transvestite'.

Hmmm... possibly. Then again, I believe that were many of us here on the forum to look into a sartorial mirror of erised we would find skirts, and quite possibly other currently women's clothes being worn as a matter of course by both men and women.

Perhaps we should coin the word 'agendric' to describe our clothing, rather than describing ourselves in any particular way because we wear it. (...but if the clothing is agendric, this makes life very difficult for men who want to express their femininity in their mode of dress)

Tor wrote: As for the Transgender/Cisgender, comparison, we have a case of fixed biological reference to give meaning to the terms.

I don't think that is quite right: the word 'sex' describes the biological and physical aspects, whereas 'gender' is used for the psychological spectrum, which is not such an easily measured reference. If someone's chromosomal or physical sex is at odds with the gender they feel they are, we define them as 'transgender' (They might argue that the word ought to be 'transsexual', because it is their body which has gone down the wrong path, not their brain.)

Tor wrote: Regarding your postscript suggestion, a quick inspection of my Concise OED suggests that the prefix has a meaning I would not endorse.

It does seem to have rather a lot of unpleasant connotations, but I haven't found a better one yet.

pelmut wrote:I don't think that is quite right: the word 'sex' describes the biological and physical aspects, whereas 'gender' is used for the psychological spectrum, which is not such an easily measured reference. If someone's chromosomal or physical sex is at odds with the gender they feel they are, we define them as 'transgender' (They might argue that the word ought to be 'transsexual', because it is their body which has gone down the wrong path, not their brain.)

Perhaps that wasn't the ideal wording. Nevertheless, what I was thinking is that in a transgender/transsexual case, we have someone who feels at odds with their apparent biological sex. My understanding has actually been that typical usage is transgender to refer to those for whom the barriers to making an all the time or permanent change are higher than the gratification of doing so, while transsexual refers to those who undergo physical modification. While ideal to remain accurate, the details are not particularly relevant here, since in either case there is a fixed biological reference involved.

Perhaps we should coin the word 'agendric' to describe our clothing, rather than describing ourselves in any particular way because we wear it. (...but if the clothing is agendric, this makes life very difficult for men who want to express their femininity in their mode of dress)

If I recall the forum history I've read aright, this here is exactly why we have our own forum here, rather than a subforum on a cross-dressing form - because the latter folk kicked out the folk like us of the time. Can't say I mind the result, since my little dabbling in that world was mostly a gedankenexperiment that faded long before I found this forum. Had "we" still been on that forum I would probably not have ended up here.

Tor wrote:

pelmut wrote:Perhaps we should coin the word 'agendric' to describe our clothing, rather than describing ourselves in any particular way because we wear it. (...but if the clothing is agendric, this makes life very difficult for men who want to express their femininity in their mode of dress)

If I recall the forum history I've read aright, this here is exactly why we have our own forum here, rather than a subforum on a cross-dressing form - because the latter folk kicked out the folk like us of the time. Can't say I mind the result, since my little dabbling in that world was mostly a gedankenexperiment that faded long before I found this forum. Had "we" still been on that forum I would probably not have ended up here.

I've only recently joined and didn't know about the history; it would seem that 'agendric clothing' is exactly the right concept then. All we have to do now is to find a word that describes someone who wears agendric clothing:

Agendricovestite
Agendrivestite
Agendricite
Agendrovite
...etc.

I have been following this discussion with interest and I'd like to add my 2d worth. I was thinking ( painful I know ) but the search is on for one word that encompasses our chosen sartorial clothing choices. I knew that some classical education would come in handy some day - the Greek prefix for man is andro and so I whereas I couldn't identify with transvestite or any of the other suggestions I could identify with my being called an ANDROSKIRTER. After all this is what I am - a man wearing a skirt at times. The skirt I am wearing thus becomes an androskirt.

Yes? No?

Instead of describing ourselves as "....ites" of one sort or another we should avoid categorizing ourselves in any way. We are first and foremost "people" and should not accept any description that differentiates us from the rest of humanity.

Regarding the term "androskirter" - that just reminds me about the discussions elsewhere on the forum about how items are sometimes described in gendered terms - "manskirt" "manbag", "mandress" etc.
I thought we had more or less agreed that those terms were silly and limiting.

What needs to be done is for clothing to be de-genderized.

pleated wrote:...What needs to be done is for clothing to be de-genderized.

That was my a-gender. [...runs for cover...]

pleated wrote:Instead of describing ourselves as "....ites" of one sort or another we should avoid categorizing ourselves in any way. We are first and foremost "people" and should not accept any description that differentiates us from the rest of humanity.

Regarding the term "androskirter" - that just reminds me about the discussions elsewhere on the forum about how items are sometimes described in gendered terms - "manskirt" "manbag", "mandress" etc.
I thought we had more or less agreed that those terms were silly and limiting.

What needs to be done is for clothing to be de-genderized.

Well said! I was reading the posts above and was rapidly losing the will to live, <snip> (Just censored myself, I am full of the cold and realised that I was about to make a rather negative post.)

Nope, I can't think of a way to say what I want to say without coming across as disparaging, I think Pleated has said what I have just given up trying to say and said it well! I think I had better go to bed with some flu remedy until my head starts working again!

There have been threads with similar discussions, such as "Was Asked To Build An Adult Tranny Site", the "Casual Crossdresser" thread, etc.