Are We Winning?

[Daryl]

Perhaps the key here is being recognisably male.

Yup, that is probably the main thing for me. I'd only expand it with "and recognisably not attempting to be anything else."

[Grok]

On the other hand, I am also a product of conditioning, and I have gotten used to manliness and it feels quite comfortable and natural. So, except for some relatively minor excursions I don't "cross" the line very much. My mirror usually tells me the truth, judging from how I am received by others in various kinds of attire. The truth, I think, is that a skirt is such a big emblem that you can make it as manly as you want, even go way over the top manning it up, and it is still crossing the line. And that line, in most people's minds, and both before and after the successes of the LGBT movement, is that a man is somehow expressing a desire to be, or be like, a woman, and not a man. In fact, any assertion of manliness above just remaining a man, could be seen as denial of the fact that you really just want to be a woman; a kind of compensation hoping to get a pass from others. (This wouldn't apply in art and propaganda, which should push the imagination of the viewer, but it would apply in real life.) With that "explanation" in mind some people may become even more sympathetic to the trans movement and less sympathetic to the men's garment choice movement. "Poor man wants to be a woman but is forced to deny it by an intolerant society."
.

While I have said that kilting is a special case, it is the closest thing to a model that we have.

There are a few general lessons to be gleaned:

1. Don't bother with over the top.

2. Be confident, and wear your clothes as if its just your everyday, normal outfit.


Keep in mind that we are at a very early stage in change. Members should consider themselves a vanguard.

[Daryl]

While I have said that kilting is a special case, it is the closest thing to a model that we have.

There are a few general lessons to be gleaned:

1. Don't bother with over the top.

2. Be confident, and wear your clothes as if its just your everyday, normal outfit.

Keep in mind that we are at a very early stage in change. Members should consider themselves a vanguard.

I'm not sure kilting is the closest model anymore. I used to think it was. Where I live other ethnic models are also quite present, and the trans model, while not something all of us can emulate, affects the common consciousness, making skirting simply not as noteworthy or reaction-worthy as might otherwise be expected.

Vanguard yes, but whether that means being more careful or more bold is still a question. Perhaps we should wonder if "shock troops" might not be a better military analogy...securing ground deep behind enemy lines quickly.

[Gusto10]

I prefer to look like a man in a skirt and not like a man dressed as a woman. I'm sure that touches some nerves, but the discussion is about making progress and increasing numbers. I think we first need to get more men on board.

I fully agree.

[oldsalt1]

Gusto10 I will ask you the same questions
1 ) Are we making any progress

2 ) Did you put on a skirt because you saw another man in a denim skirt

[DonP]

I think we're making SLOW progress. There needs to be an impetus for a more rapid change, like basketball shorts that just took off when they were introduced or cargo shorts. It would be nice if we could inspire that kind of market for skirts. And no, I did not start wearing a skirt because I saw someone else wearing one, but I did detect a growing trend through what I read online. And I would bet that's the case with almost everyone here. We are not a group who follows trends, but if we wanted to create one, we should recognize that many (especially younger) would only wear a skirt if they saw it on a peer and could be certain they would not be ridiculed.

[JeffB1959]

Are we winning? To me, that is of zero consequence. I simply dress the way I like and that's good enough for me.

[oldsalt1]

I think we're making SLOW progress. There needs to be an impetus for a more rapid change, like basketball shorts that just took off when they were introduced or cargo shorts. It would be nice if we could inspire that kind of market for skirts. And no, I did not start wearing a skirt because I saw someone else wearing one, but I did detect a growing trend through what I read online. And I would bet that's the case with almost everyone here. We are not a group who follows trends, but if we wanted to create one, we should recognize that many (especially younger) would only wear a skirt if they saw it on a peer and could be certain they would not be ridiculed.

So the younger would only do it if they saw somebody else doing it. But if somebody isn't first to do it how would they start.

I am sure its been covered before but it might be interesting to rehash. I am going to start a new post to see if there is any interest.

[Grok]

Yes, change is very slow...incremental.

[crfriend]

So the younger would only do it if they saw somebody else doing it. But if somebody isn't first to do it how would they start.

This is a fundamental problem with any situation which depends on "leadership" to work properly. If nobody steps up to lead, the sheep will wander aimlessly. If no-one else is going to lead, then it's up to us, so get out there and be seen. Project a compelling image; set a good example; interact with folks; make people want to follow.

It's a big hill to take for sure, but what's also for sure is that we'll never take it if we continue to cower in the valley. I've been atop a few hills in my day, and, trust me, the view is great.

Where's your hill?

[Daryl]

So the younger would only do it if they saw somebody else doing it. But if somebody isn't first to do it how would they start.

This is a fundamental problem with any situation which depends on "leadership" to work properly. If nobody steps up to lead, the sheep will wander aimlessly. If no-one else is going to lead, then it's up to us, so get out there and be seen. Project a compelling image; set a good example; interact with folks; make people want to follow.

It's a big hill to take for sure, but what's also for sure is that we'll never take it if we continue to cower in the valley. I've been atop a few hills in my day, and, trust me, the view is great.

Where's your hill?

Public transit in a metro region of nearly 6 million people, daily for at least the last 6 years of my life, and everywhere else I go (and I like to get out a lot).

I think this is a good point to insert the Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.

[crfriend]

I think this is a good point to insert the Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.

That was an interesting read, and thank you for it.

I am more resonant, however, with the old-ish adage, "Courage is not the absence of fear. It is the mastery of fear." This has been variously attributed, but the soundness of it holds.

Fear is an important component of our existence; it helps restrain us and keep us from doing really stupid things. Without the reticence that fear causes us, we'd run 'foul of Darwin's laws pretty darned quickly. That said, sometimes one needs to do something even though he's terrified of the prospect. Courage, therefore, I interpret as the ability to remain on an even keel even whilst scared out of your wits.

Fear of the unknown, however, is corrosive. If occasionally we didn't poke our snouts into dark corners we'd still be duking it out with the chimpanzees. Everybody quotes, "Curiosity killed the cat" to their children, but most happily (or ignorantly) omit the all-important, "but satisfaction brought her back." So, ultimately, it comes down to risk-management; if you're reasonably sure that you're safe in whatever sort of rig you like, go for it. If you're not reasonably sure of basic safety, re-evaluate your options.

My "hill", in this regard, has been work -- at two separate employers -- and it has gone well indeed. The view is magnificent. I figure I wear skirts about 90% of the time now. Another 6% or so to palazzo trousers, and only very, very rarely "men's" trousers and then only when I absolutely need to -- or get the odd urge to do so. More people than not that know me now have never seen me in conventional drab, so for them the way I dress is normal/i].

[Grok]

I took another look at the Wikipedia article for Bloomers (clothing). The history included:

1. The bloomer craze of 1851. During this period of enthusiasm, women created a variety of designs, though generally of the short-skirt-over-trousers theme. Eventually, this enthusiasm faded, as did attempts at nonconformity-except for a few mavericks.

2. During the 1890s, a skirtless version was available for a few activeties, such as gymnastics and bicycle-riding. (but not tennis) A pattern was established-it was okay for women to wear trousers for some athletic endeavors.

[crfriend]

I took another look at the Wikipedia article for Bloomers (clothing). The history included:

1. The bloomer craze of 1851. During this period of enthusiasm, women created a variety of designs, though generally of the short-skirt-over-trousers theme. Eventually, this enthusiasm faded, as did attempts at nonconformity-except for a few mavericks.

2. During the 1890s, a skirtless version was available for a few athletic endeavors, such as gymnastics and bicycle-riding.

Of note, is that the "trouser" component of "bloomers" did not resemble men's trousers of the day, which is rather unlike the situation we have today where many of the women's designs are lifted almost entirely from men's designs -- especially in jeans -- including the direction of fastening.

Some of the bloomer-based rigs were actually reasonably attractive which cannot be said of what passes in the modern realm.

If fiddling around on Wikipedia, also see "Artistic Dress" and "Victorian Dress Reform". Interesting stuff and fodder for imagination.

[Grok]

Someone mentioned that there are now two classifications of clothes: 1. Womens' wear. 2. Unisex.