skirtcafe.org

Barleymower wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 9:38 pm

Coder wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 8:47 pm I flip between different thoughts all the time - sometimes I want skirts to be degendered, decoupled from femininity/masculinity, sometimes I want them to be part of a masculine aesthetic/expression, and sometimes I don’t mind the idea of them being feminine. Why does it matter? Can wearing a skirt be any one of those modes and it’s just down to the individual who wears the skirt - and perhaps how the skirt is styled?

I agree it doesn't matter how you interpret the skirt or covering - masculine, feminine or neutral. I'm looking for a way forward that works, something that people can relate too.
The trouble I face, I think many MIS face is that there are millions of skirts out there and they are nearly all pretty; feminine if you like. In order for it ro be regarded as masculine it needs to be plain or kilt like.
I feel like I'm missing out on all the good stuff. So from my perspective they can call it whatever as long as I can wear it.

You are correct. Is a skirt is gendered as masculine, it will be drab and look like ****! just like all of the other drab **** clothing that is offered for men today.

Getting back to the original context of the article, the comments scared the living crap out of me!! Here is my takeaway from reading all of the comments:

1. Men wearing skirts are an evil abomination that will eat your children for lunch or at minimum try to have sex with them.

2. Men wearing skirts are all perverts that are mentally ill. The airlines should not be hiring mentally ill employees.

3. God forbid that the airline should ever hire a male pilot that wears a skirt.

4. Men displaying feminine characteristics by wearing cosmetics such as lipstick are mentally ill and will bring about a total collapse of society.

5. Men expressing feminine characteristics are an abomination.

6. Men wearing skirts will cause an innocent child's mind to be immediately corrupted.

Note that there are no mentions of masculine women that are now permitted to wear men's uniforms. Why isn't this an issue?

I can't believe that we are living in the 21st century with this type of knuckle-dragging, draconian, misogynistic attitudes.

Didn't this article scare the living sh*t our of any other Cafe Members here???

I really wish that I hadn't read the article in the first place, Excuse me while I go vomit up my lunch.

THERE IS AN ALL-OUT WAR ON GENDER NON-CONFORMING PEOPLE IN THE USA THAT IS BEING FUELED BY CONSERVATIVES!

jamie001 wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 8:43 pm

Myopic Bookworm wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 8:49 am I received a useful batch of part-used nail varnish from a neighbour, but I gave all the reds and pinks to a lady friend, and kept the grey, dark blue, silver, and purple ones.

WE will never achieve fashion freedom if we keep colors as being feminine and masculine as you are doing when you have away all of your pink and red nail polish. Color has no gender! It is all a marketing lie that has been fed to us since we will children. I love red and pink nail polish and that is all that I wear because the other colors are too drab and boring for me. As men, we need to be allowed to express our femininity, just as women express masculinity in many different ways through fashion and action.

Yeah, but I just dislike most shades of pink! It's a dislike that I inherited from my grandmother (who incidentally, in the 1920s, played tennis "as a man" in the local competition when they were short of male players). For much of my childhood I endured a pink bedroom, until my parents could afford to redecorate, and that was enough pink to last me for a lifetime! At the moment, I am wearing gold nail polish (chosen for the coronation of King Charles), which goes nicely with my olive green outfit. I will wear colours that I like regardless of convention, but the "boring" masculine colours unfortunately happen to include some of my favourites, such as black, chestnut brown, and dark greens. PInk and red nails are not only coded as female; they are also, to my eyes, rather old-fashioned and conventional: girls are wearing black, white, purple, and blue nails, and so am I. (In another life, I would probably have had a Goth phase.) But if you like pink, then go for it!

Fashion freedom has to be taken step by step, if you want to challenge the binary stereotypes rather than simply crossing the aisle. Gender-signalling is a thing, whether you resent it or not, and I am prepared to cross only one or two lines at the same time. My wife is not comfortable with any hint that I am "cross-dressing", and though I am pushing a number of conventional boundaries, I prefer not to be misgendered. Sticking to masculine colours when wearing a skirt is a compromise that many here seem to have found valuable. And I have no desire to wear, as a man, styles that I don't particularly like or envy when I see them on a woman.

jamie001 wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 8:35 pmWe need to accept that there are some of us that are male and are more feminine that masculine per societies stereotypical pigeonholing definitions.

That has long been understood, but conveniently swept under the rug by the radical feminists in their attempt to completely marginalise men,

By wearing a skirt and other feminine attire, I am expressing my feminine side. There is no reason to attempt to make skirts a unisex garment. It is fine for skirts to remain a feminine garment.

In that case, you are taking the trans-* "side" of things where skirt == feminine and thus men, who tend to be masculine, cannot wear them. That's rubbish, because men can -- and do -- wear them quite successfully and can be respected members of their communities. It's not the clothes, it's the behaviour that counts. And, no, most conventionally masculine guys are not gorillas, they're loving partners. loving fathers, and upstanding people. We confuse masculinity with machismo at our mortal peril.

Society needs to accept and respect a male person's right to express femininity through the clothing that they wear.

What happens if if it's not intended as a display of "femininity" (which I am not convinced exists any longer)? What happens if a cigar is simply a cigar (as Freud was eventually forced to admit)? Or a skirt is simply an article of clothing?

The above also dovetails into precisely why I do not necessarily align with the trans-* crowd on this (although I absolutely respect their right to exist), and that's because the trans-* crowd uses the skirt as a signifier that they're not men. We, as men, are trying to remove the significance of the garment as being inherently feminine, and therefore off limits to men.

jamie001 wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 9:00 pm THERE IS AN ALL-OUT WAR ON GENDER NON-CONFORMING PEOPLE IN THE USA THAT IS BEING FUELED BY CONSERVATIVES!

Jamie - I am not sure of the relevance of your comment (rant?). This is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men, formerly known as men in skirts. We do this in the context of men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garments. We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices. Continuing dialog on gender is encouraged in the context of fashion freedom for men. I am not sure how that relates to "gender non-conforming people".

Stu wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 10:09 pm

jamie001 wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 9:00 pm THERE IS AN ALL-OUT WAR ON GENDER NON-CONFORMING PEOPLE IN THE USA THAT IS BEING FUELED BY CONSERVATIVES!

Jamie - I am not sure of the relevance of your comment (rant?). This is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men, formerly known as men in skirts. We do this in the context of men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garments. We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices. Continuing dialog on gender is encouraged in the context of fashion freedom for men. I am not sure how that relates to "gender non-conforming people".

Ny apologies for the rant without enough context.
The war on gender nonconforming that is being waged in the USA is very relevant to the men on this forum that want to wear skirts because the majority of men that wear skirts are perceived as gender nonconforming. Gender nonconforming simply means that your presentation deviates from the stereotypical presentation of a man as defined by society at large. Because all of us on this forum wear skirts, we are gender nonconforming in the eyes of the general public. As the gender nonconforming war in the USA gains momentum, I would not be surprise to see laws enacted to regulate what garments are permitted on men appearing in a public setting just like in Saudi Arabia, After reading the Alaska Airlines article, I am shocked that skirt wearing men are considered by society as child perverts, sexual deviants, and poster childs for the mentally ill.

Even though you may not personally identify as gender nonconforming, everyone here on the cafe will be negatively affected by the war against gender nonconformance that is happening in the USA. The conservative politicians are attempting to reverse years of fashion freedom progress in attempt to appeal to the religious right that believes that a man in a skirt is an abomination.

Stu's response to my comment here was well received and I appreciate his straight forward thoughtfulness. We may be coming at the gender matter from different angles, but I believe we have enough common ground to break bread together, share a beer, etc. Well said sir.

Jamie's responses probably parallel mine more than most members here. I too see no shame in the modern day "women's" off the peg skirt retaining its feminine connotations. I realize not all skirts are feminine, I myself have skirts that would rate across the spectrum. I admit to feeling more secure in my more masculine skirts, but I do love the beautiful feeling I get from the feminine ones.

These days those feminine ones just don't get the mileage they used to. The reason is I just get tired of listening to everyone's crap. It was relatively easy at first, but years and years of being ridiculed, mocked and gawked at by so many people takes its toll. Even in my masculine skirts, I don't care to be around crowds of people or other communal places anymore. Most of my trips out in a skirt are in the rural mountain areas scarcely populated. I've got my establishments that I've frequented over the years that I know give me a positive vibe. The Food Lion in Abingdon, the little produce stand right down the road, the old country store on Big Walker Mountain, virtually all of the antique shops in the local area.

Places I dread... Walmart, gas stations, Lowes, other hardware stores, Rural King, Harbor Freight, etc. I don't mind the stores themselves, even when wearing skirts the staff at all of these places have always treated me well... it's the other customers... it sucks. I will wear a skirt there, but if I can help it I just stick to my old black Macabi and a tee-shirt. Sometimes that isn't even enough to dodge the rude and obnoxious redneck behavior.

And I swear it has gotten worse over time with the culture wars on gender non-conforming people... that includes all of us, I dare say even good old fashioned men in kilts... KILTS would probably face even occasional harassment. It seems there is an element of our society that has gotten emboldened and downright wicked. After a run of progressive victories, they [the wicked] have finally started to gain serious traction on curtailing everyday liberty we all take for granted.

I've had conversations with several of these people and I listen to what they say (when I'm wearing pants and they don't know any better) I was shocked at some of the responses. I used to be able to play the "freedom" card. That's getting to the point where it doesn't work anymore. Many of these people will flat out say they "don't give a damn about freedom". They want it their way. This world belongs to THEM, and if you think you're going to stand in their way, they don't have any remorse to put our asses in the ground. That's right... they want us dead. Not all of them, but many do, and you have to admit... random acts of violence are soaring right now.... just sayin'.

jamie001 wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 10:28 pm Even though you may not personally identify as gender nonconforming, everyone here on the cafe will be negatively affected by the war against gender nonconformance that is happening in the USA. The conservative politicians are attempting to reverse years of fashion freedom progress in attempt to appeal to the religious right that believes that a man in a skirt is an abomination.

You're right... and I come prepared with proof....
He's not talking about "drag queens". Drag queen don't dress like women. How many women look like a drag queen? Not many. Drag queens dress like drag queens...

No, in the minds of people like this, skirts=women. Men in skirts = men who dress like women.

Carl, Stu, Al, Fred, I know you all will disagree that men in skirts = men who dress like women. And I agree with you...

Here's the thing though, you all don't make LAW.

WV State Senator Mike Azinger DOES.

And law enforcement enforces... wait for it... LAW. Not the constitution, not your "rights", no "morality"... LAW.

And THAT'S the point I'm trying to make....

jamie001 wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 10:28 pmEven though you may not personally identify as gender nonconforming, everyone here on the cafe will be negatively affected by the war against gender nonconformance that is happening in the USA. The conservative politicians are attempting to reverse years of fashion freedom progress in attempt to appeal to the religious right that believes that a man in a skirt is an abomination.

Indeed, and that is precisely why I've been advocating for separating the two factions because of the differing directions we're going in.

Is there a neo-con backlash going on in the USA? Absolutely. I don't want to be caught up in it, but because of the way things are going at the moment with the velocity and pressure of the trans-* movement, I'm guaranteed to get caught up in it -- even though I deny being part of that community. It puts conventional males at a very nasty disadvantage, and likely will. I suspect that eventually the trans-* movement will "win" and skirts will forever be classified as "womens' ONLY" (or those who masquerade as) and men will be locked out for generations.

We had a brilliant opening, and failed to capitalise on it because we're so thin on the ground.

My view is that skirts should be for everybody, not restricted to just half the population.

Near term, I suspect that Barleymower is right-to gain traction a design will have to be either plain, or kilt like. This has been discussed before. An individual may be (merely) tolerated, but for something to gain traction you can push the envelope only so far.

Grok wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 11:33 pm My view is that skirts should be for everybody, not restricted to just half the population.

Near term, I suspect that Barleymower is right-to gain traction a design will have to be either plain, or kilt like. This has been discussed before. An individual may be (merely) tolerated, but for something to gain traction you can push the envelope only so far.

I don't agree with the statement An individual may be (merely) tolerated, but for something to gain traction you can push the envelope only so far" because women had the guts to push the envelope far past the edge and that is the reason that they enjoy fashion freedom today. Notice that you don't see any attack on trans men wearing suits. The attack is only on men wearing skirts. There are two reasons:

1. The patriarchy who are very misogynistic will do anything to maintain power. Men in skirts is a threat to the patriarchy.

2. Women have already won fashion freedom. A women in a man's suit is accepted in society. I have see this recently on awards shows in America. No one bats an eye. On the other hand, if a man is wearing a skirt, all of the WTF's start immediately.

IMHO men do have the guts and fortitude to win fashion freedom like women did in the past. Men have weak constitutions and are pack animals that to have self worth, they must fit into the pack/herd mindset.

I agree there is a war on gender nonconforming people - and even though I'm not fond of the name/term (or more precisely - I see it in a clinical cold way), I realize I'll never been seen as anything other than it from the vast majority of the population. It will be nice when the skirt itself won't be a signifier of anything, but for the time being in most people's eyes it isn't. I don't see us having enough momentum short of a world-changing event (could be a news story, movie, etc...) - it's going to take years before it is redefined, if ever.

I don't take the comments sections very seriously - nor do I let them get me down (although they do work on me a bit). Unfortunately they represent a portion of people and how they think when all inhibitions of good behavior are removed. Heck, some of you have the "pleasure" of meeting these individuals in real life... and nothing stops them from being themselves except the law.

However I worry about the rhetoric coming from the right side of things. What seems to be happening in the US is that one state will do a wildly leftist/rightist thing, and then it becomes a competition between the red and blue states as to which will outdo the other in legislation. You have boycots, people saying they'll move to ______ state because they can't stand living amongst _______. I'm really sick and tired of it all. I will be the first to vote for an Artificial Intelligence president. But I digress...

The danger I see are the wild swings. In a normal time, Azinger would be ignored or mocked to focus on important legislation. But it seems nowadays you have to say/propose crazy things to be noticed (I am not going to name politician names, but they inhabit both sides). So I presume we will see a ratcheting up in red states proposing - just gonna say it - anti-crossdressing laws (note: these laws will ONLY apply to men, and will apply everywhere and under any circumstance). I hate the term, but in the law's eyes... we will likely be folded into that category. Legislation may not pass, but the Blue states will attempt to codify something equally ridiculous but opposite (or they prove me wrong and simply roll their collective eyes).

Please note: I am making pains not to attack any one side or party.

My apologies for repeating this yet again....

With trousers, women had to push the envelope over a very long period, before this became accepted outside a few niche types-bloomers, culottes. That was during the second half of the 18th century and into the early years of the twentieth. This very short list started to expand to include beach pajamas, about a century ago.

When I was a small boy during the early 1960s, most females were still wearing skirts/dresses most of the time. The switch over to mostly trousers occurred during my youth, but womens' initial experimentation began mid-eighteenth century, over a life time earlier.

Grok wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 12:23 am My apologies for repeating this yet again....

With trousers, women had to push the envelope over a very long period, before this became accepted outside a few niche types-bloomers, culottes. That was during the second half of the 18th century and into the early years of the twentieth. This very short list started to expand to include beach pajamas, about a century ago.

When I was a small boy during the early 1960s, most females were still wearing skirts/dresses most of the time. The switch over to mostly trousers occurred during my youth, but womens' initial experimentation began mid-eighteenth century, over a life time earlier.

This is true - and I bet there were laws on the books prohibiting them from wearing pants (not being sarcastic). At the moment, we have no such barriers. What I wonder, however, is what backlash they faced - and whether it was worse/the same/better than what we face. Does it matter? Ehhhh, probably not.

Near the end of the eighteenth century it was acceptable for women to wear bloomers as athletic wear, such as when riding the new fangled bicycles. Yes, athletic wear was regarded as a special case.

The culottes didn't cause too much back lash, because of the skirt like silhouette.

Other than these (very few) exceptions, women were subject to arrest for wearing other types of trousers.

This very short list of designs began to expand slowly about a century ago.

Grok wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 12:50 am Near the end of the eighteenth century it was acceptable for women to wear bloomers as athletic wear, such as when riding the new fangled bicycles. Yes, athletic wear was regarded as a special case.

The culottes didn't cause too much back lash, because of the skirt like silhouette.

Other than these (very few) exceptions, women were subject to arrest for wearing other types of trousers.

This very short list of designs began to expand slowly about a century ago.

Do we have a sense of how many years it took for women to go from “being arrested for wearing pants” to “being acceptable to wear pants?”