skirtcafe.org

Orange Apple wrote:...There is no right or wrong to being who you are...

Exactly. Whether you fall within someone else's definition of a given term, or your own definition, is irrelevant.

Staying within the title of this thread and following on from earlier posts about work environments, I have recently approached the National Trust as a volunteer at one of their houses as a man in a skirt, top, cardigan and scarf society label as womenswear. Gave more detail on Stevie's thread "work" under skirts and kilts for men. No problem with my "uniform". Been on duty since dealt with many members of public and no issue at all. If any had private thoughts certainly kept it to themselves with no indication. Other volunteers who share my duty day engage with me again with no indication if have private thoughts. I see this role as no different to a paid role with regards clothing expectations of employees.

I have not raised any policy queries with them. Simply mentioned to Manager some may complain whose reply was basically let them. Gender neutral uniforms may be here already. Perhaps men who simply want to express freedom of expression just like women do should embrace with confidence and stature. Just turn up.

If attending interview and never being seen I would wait until appointed, not mention it then turn up in a skirt. Everybody at interviews do not dress as they would for work. Everybody tries to impress both visually and practically. With regards myself and NT my wife snd I had been a week earlier as a visitor. Only week later my wife said we have talked before about volunteering, what about there. Only in general conversation with my wife and Manager on phone saying we came last week and her reply was see many people, my wife simply said you will remember my husband. The Managers reply was oh the man in the lovely skirt. That was certainly my que to go skirted but even if not said as it was not deterimental or important to a career I would still have gone. In the UK no employer can discriminate against an employee. Not saying they don't, at interview they can get around their personal prejudice by saying they had someone better. Talking about it beforehand builds a picture to be imagined. Secure the job, then go as you. Be you, be confident but above all be sensible in appearance. I get the odd giggle, negative look but these days whereever I go who ever I have direct contact with are at the least respectful. I for one have seen a massive difference in attitude towards myself out in public generally than 5 years ago.

As always there will be exceptions in strict tradtional areas like law courts for example but as is often said nothing ventured, nothing gained.

For transgender persons to which the report this thread started with are also a valid exception where legal backing is required to allow them to be themselves. My gripe in the government uniform policy is again it is selective not inclusive under the banner of gender equality.

moonshadow wrote:When we consider what basis our current gender roles have, what makes a woman act like a woman and a man act like a man, it's all stereotypical. It's all arbitrary! In Nature, the women bear the young, and the men inseminate the women. Everything beyond that, regarding what we wear, drive, speak, do, the jobs we have, our roles in society is the result of social evolution. In our quest to put a label on everything, we forget that really- none of it matters. At the end of the day, we are who we are. Provided we're not bringing harm to others, society should let us be who we are. If Bob wants to become Bobbie, or vice versa that's his/her business, and his/her choice.

To me, taking medicine, and altering my body simply to measure up to society's expectation of a "man" or a "woman" seems contrary to the will of my inner self. But that's just my situation. I guess that's why I never really considered myself transgender, and I still feel like most transgendered people who were to interview me, and my ideals would just label me a "man in a skirt".... and I'm fine with that. I feel if I were to call myself transgender, I'd lock myself into a gender role, albeit a female one, and I couldn't be a "man" when I needed to be. I don't like being locked into things, so I try not to label myself.

I agree; we don't need to get hung up on labels. Who wants to be forced into any category? Most of us are round pegs struggling with the compulsion of a society of limited understanding trying to jam us into angular holes on the pegboard, simply for the convenience of categorizing us. Well, I don't fit their categories. I don't need to be regimented and classified.

As for some transgender individuals choosing to transition in a very complete way, I think that is natural. We cannot escape the images with which we are socialized early in our development, not matter how hard we try. It seems perfectly natural for a chromosomal male who knows he is, by gender identity, female, to wish to adopt the role and all the role trappings which to him implies female. After all, would most of us be so drawn to alternative fashion if we did not have socially imprinted feelings about which clothing says male and which says female? Otherwise everyone would just wear baggy black pajamas, a la North Korea, and we would have no need for a diversity of style and fashion. I think we would be poorer, culturally, artistically, for a lack of difference. Each can choose his own uniform in a free world.

dillon wrote:I agree; we don't need to get hung up on labels. Who wants to be forced into any category? Most of us are round pegs struggling with the compulsion of a society of limited understanding trying to jam us into angular holes on the pegboard, simply for the convenience of categorizing us. Well, I don't fit their categories. I don't need to be regimented and classified.

As for some transgender individuals choosing to transition in a very complete way, I think that is natural. We cannot escape the images with which we are socialized early in our development, not matter how hard we try. It seems perfectly natural for a chromosomal male who knows he is, by gender identity, female, to wish to adopt the role and all the role trappings which to him implies female. After all, would most of us be so drawn to alternative fashion if we did not have socially imprinted feelings about which clothing says male and which says female? Otherwise everyone would just wear baggy black pajamas, a la North Korea, and we would have no need for a diversity of style and fashion. I think we would be poorer, culturally, artistically, for a lack of difference. Each can choose his own uniform in a free world.

Yes...diversity is one of the things that makes western culture so beautiful. On the other side of the spectrum, I am not really a full fledged "man" either. As I have stated here and there there are things that most men can do that I can't. I can't grow a lot of body hair, I can't grow a full beard, I don't have an "alpha" personality. It seems gender wise, I'm not really one way or the other. Just as I could take hormones to transition over to a woman, I could also take hormones to finish what Nature apparently started and be the "complete man", the latter would probably be more successful because the ground work is already laid. It's almost like God started to put me together but left it for Goddess to finish!

But anyway, the point being that I'm not interested in changing my chemistry either way. I'm fine being one of Natures "freaks". But that's just me. I can certainly understand others who feel the need to undergo various transition therapies. Again, if it makes them happy, and it harms no one, then go for it! In fact, happy people are generally a positive force in the world, so by all means... In contrast, forcing someone to be someone they are not is harmful for everyone involved, including the oppressor! And that is why I stand with transgender people in their fight for equal treatment.

It seems there are too many people in our lawmaking process that wish to make the U.S. like North Korea... dull, drab, boring, UNDER CONTROL.

* * *

Well, this has been a very informative thread. I've learned a lot that I didn't realize before. I hope I haven't offended anyone. I am not the final authority of trans-issues. I am simply but a seeker. I ask tough questions, and tend to make provocative statements because when I discuss issues like these with those who are typically not understanding these are the issues they point out to me. Through this thread I have learned that despite my own insistence that I am not transgender, like it or not, my character seems to fall under that umbrella, and it's really not the skirts, it's everything about my nature going back as far as I can remember.

My annoyance at the fact that women can explore their masculinity and still be considered just ordinary women stands, but it is what it is. I can't change society or it's views. A woman wears slacks at the office... still a woman. A man wears a dress "shhhhhh.... don't say anything, he might be one of those transgendered... better call HR". On the plus side, transgender people are slowly winning more rights, and becoming more accepted.

I made a remark to my wife yesterday when she asked about why I deleted my facebook. I told her "I'm having a human overload.... too many damn opinions!", and continued "There are so many opinions out there, the world is going to do what it's going to do. It cares not what I say about it, I could die tomorrow and the world will go on just fine without me. So what's the point of having an opinion? Nobody cares for it anyway, it's not going to change anything. The world is full of people trying to solve the worlds problems, of that we are in no short supply, so I don't have to get involved... this old boy is stepping down!"

So with that, and my involvement in this thread, I wasn't trying to change minds, or debate. Just educate myself, and along the way, share my story and how I feel it all ties into my situation. That's all. I do think there are going to be some hurtles along the way for the trans community. A lot of what was written in this thread by others will be hard for many across society to accept, especially in the south. BUT... that's not my cross to bear. I will continue to wear feminine clothing, I will continue to engage in my other "womanly" activities, as I have done my whole life. Society will be what it will be, and I shall be what I shall be.

If I should ever get turned away from a business for wearing a skirt (it's coming)... than I'll just shop elsewhere. If I should get fired... I'll just work elsewhere.

And if I can't find a job, I won't have to shop.

https://youtu.be/hr0rDW5j1KU

dillon wrote:

moonshadow wrote:When we consider what basis our current gender roles have, what makes a woman act like a woman and a man act like a man, it's all stereotypical. It's all arbitrary! In Nature, the women bear the young, and the men inseminate the women. Everything beyond that, regarding what we wear, drive, speak, do, the jobs we have, our roles in society is the result of social evolution. In our quest to put a label on everything, we forget that really- none of it matters. At the end of the day, we are who we are. Provided we're not bringing harm to others, society should let us be who we are. If Bob wants to become Bobbie, or vice versa that's his/her business, and his/her choice.

To me, taking medicine, and altering my body simply to measure up to society's expectation of a "man" or a "woman" seems contrary to the will of my inner self. But that's just my situation. I guess that's why I never really considered myself transgender, and I still feel like most transgendered people who were to interview me, and my ideals would just label me a "man in a skirt".... and I'm fine with that. I feel if I were to call myself transgender, I'd lock myself into a gender role, albeit a female one, and I couldn't be a "man" when I needed to be. I don't like being locked into things, so I try not to label myself.

I agree; we don't need to get hung up on labels. Who wants to be forced into any category? Most of us are round pegs struggling with the compulsion of a society of limited understanding trying to jam us into angular holes on the pegboard, simply for the convenience of categorizing us. Well, I don't fit their categories. I don't need to be regimented and classified.

As for some transgender individuals choosing to transition in a very complete way, I think that is natural. We cannot escape the images with which we are socialized early in our development, not matter how hard we try. It seems perfectly natural for a chromosomal male who knows he is, by gender identity, female, to wish to adopt the role and all the role trappings which to him implies female. After all, would most of us be so drawn to alternative fashion if we did not have socially imprinted feelings about which clothing says male and which says female? Otherwise everyone would just wear baggy black pajamas, a la North Korea, and we would have no need for a diversity of style and fashion. I think we would be poorer, culturally, artistically, for a lack of difference. Each can choose his own uniform in a free world.

Biology assigns your sex. Society assigns your gender. Humans are obsessed with labels, catagories, assignments etc, except for when it doesn't suit them. These labels etc are the cause of all, if not most of the worlds problems in many aspects of life.

I firmly believe, and I know I'm not alone, that the human is on a wide spectrum from female to male. Many women are firmly 100% female/feminine. Many men are firmly 100% male/masculine. In between men and women will ovetlap in varying degrees and take on each others attributes, feelings emotions etc. Who is right, who is wrong? No one. We are all female at first creation developing biologically to either a male or female. With the complexity of the human body, it is no wonder that men and women can have a mix of varying feminine/masculine tendencies. After birth society provides us with our gender "clothes".

In this human development from conception, the wiring of the human body can get so crossed that we have a 100% female in a male body and vice versa. Transgender for a human label. Wether they take the treatment to realign the body or not they are still a human and part of the spectrum of humans. Sadly the section they occupy is far too much for many humans to cope with, far worse than a man in a skirt unlike women in trousers. The other day I observed a young man, late 20's point out to the woman he was with, similar age, a field of pigs. They burst out laughing and were making all sorts of fun at these animals about their appearance and behaviour of some in the field. If they cannot cope with nature then it is not surprising that many on this forum talk about their experiences and why sadly legislation is needed to support Transgender. I just wish in pursuit of gender equality recognition it is inclusive not selective but then we are back to humans operating within their boundaries of labels etc.

Wonderfully said SkirtedMan! Pardon my brief reply, but I find I can add nothing more, you said it all!

moonshadow wrote:If I had my way, I'd wear skirts all of the time, I wouldn't even own a pair of trousers. As it stands now, I've only got two pairs, and one pair of bibs. The bibs are in the closet, and one pair or trousers is in the trunk of the car, the other is in the box on the truck, just in the event I need a pair of pants on the road somewhere. (I frequently wear skirts not suitable for changing tires in)

As a bloke who wears skirts most of the time, I can agree with keeping a pair of junk trousers in the boot of the car just in case a tyre needs changing.

I still recall the time that I managed to get a flat on one of the main roads in Framingham, MA and had to pull over to change the dratted thing (to swap it out for "the doughnut" (the "small spare")). I was wearing one of my velvet skirts and a white dress shirt at the time, it was dark, I had a hard time locating the hard-point for the jack, and the lug-nuts were rusted on. The physical job was one that really called for a reasonably large hammer and overalls. I called for "roadside assistance" and was told that there was going to be an hour's wait. Torqued off, I located the hard-point by feel (after missing it once and punching through the fender-pan), jacked the car partway up, and employed a remarkably large amount of loosening-torque to each lug-nut by jumping on the handle of the wrench. It must've been quite the sight -- a guy in a velvet skirt, with the backside of his car partway in the air, jumping onto the lug-wrench, all the while swearing like a sailor. I got the "spare" swapped in, called "roadside assistance" again to tell them to call off the dogs, and went on my way, most unamused. Yes, trousers would have been best, as well as a grungy shirt.

Perhaps I should keep a pair of cruddy trousers in the boot of my present car and a ratty shirt. First, however, I need to procure a jack and lug-wrench; my present car didn't come with either...

crfriend wrote:Perhaps I should keep a pair of cruddy trousers in the boot of my present car and a ratty shirt. First, however, I need to procure a jack and lug-wrench; my present car didn't come with either...

I have an 18" swivel head breaker bar and a socket sized to fit my wheel bolts in my car, though I've never used it. I already had the breaker bar and bought the socket to go with it. I did so because the lug wrench that came with my '81 VW Jetta split the length of the socket the one time I had to use it. In all the years since the mid-'70s when I re-equipped my Opal Manta with radial tires, that is the only flat I've ever had.

crfriend wrote:As a bloke who wears skirts most of the time, I can agree with keeping a pair of junk trousers in the boot of the car just in case a tyre needs changing.

Really it's not a bad thing to carry around regardless of what you're wearing. Even if you're wearing a nice suit and tie. Women also would do well to carry a change of "work clothes" because auto breakdowns DO happen, and many skirts are just not up to the task for those type of engagements.

My old truck leaves me stranded once in a while. I've had to wrestle with many-a-roadside repairs including one busted transmission line mended with a compression coupling. I was just wearing an ordinary tee shirt and jeans that day anyway, but both came home smelling of transmission fluid and stained accordingly. Also doesn't hurt to "look normal" in case you find yourself broken down in less than desirable environs.

"He sho gota rueal purty mouth..."

moonshadow wrote:

crfriend wrote:As a bloke who wears skirts most of the time, I can agree with keeping a pair of junk trousers in the boot of the car just in case a tyre needs changing.

Really it's not a bad thing to carry around regardless of what you're wearing. Even if you're wearing a nice suit and tie. Women also would do well to carry a change of "work clothes" because auto breakdowns DO happen, and many skirts are just not up to the task for those type of engagements.

My old truck leaves me stranded once in a while. I've had to wrestle with many-a-roadside repairs including one busted transmission line mended with a compression coupling. I was just wearing an ordinary tee shirt and jeans that day anyway, but both came home smelling of transmission fluid and stained accordingly. Also doesn't hurt to "look normal" in case you find yourself broken down in less than desirable environs.

"He sho gota rueal purty mouth..."

LOL!! There is a T-shirt available at various paddling (whitewater) outfitters that says "Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!"

dillon wrote:

moonshadow wrote:

crfriend wrote:As a bloke who wears skirts most of the time, I can agree with keeping a pair of junk trousers in the boot of the car just in case a tyre needs changing.

Really it's not a bad thing to carry around regardless of what you're wearing. Even if you're wearing a nice suit and tie. Women also would do well to carry a change of "work clothes" because auto breakdowns DO happen, and many skirts are just not up to the task for those type of engagements.

My old truck leaves me stranded once in a while. I've had to wrestle with many-a-roadside repairs including one busted transmission line mended with a compression coupling. I was just wearing an ordinary tee shirt and jeans that day anyway, but both came home smelling of transmission fluid and stained accordingly. Also doesn't hurt to "look normal" in case you find yourself broken down in less than desirable environs.

"He sho gota rueal purty mouth..."

LOL!! There is a T-shirt available at various paddling (whitewater) outfitters that says "Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!"

Ha "Dueling Banjo's" from "Deliverance" - plink plink plink plink plink - a pause for silence - then - plink plink plink plink plink - then a storm of whitewater
rapids as chords began a back water feverous exchange in PERFECT harmony !