skirtcafe.org

Evolution made sure that the specimens with the most obvious sexual attributes attracted more mates and reproduced more successfully, but Jehova did not believe in evolution and persuaded Adam & Eve to cover up. Humanity has been doing its utmost to get round his lordship's injunctions ever since. For example, we invented trousers to cover the flesh while making the the wearer's sex quite obvious, since skirted garments disguised the sex too well. If this were not enough, we also invented uplift bras and even uplift briefs to make sure our anatomy would not go unnoticed.

So, if you want to make your skirts more masculine, gentlemen, wear a big furry sporran to attract attention like the Scots do, or simply put some padding in your underwear!

Martin (who finds neither of these suggestions necesssary).

I think that we are all struggling with this not so trivial question. It's not easy to define what a masculine skirt should be but then it's also not so easy to define what it should not be. Even defining the negative positive ( i.e. defining what a feminine skirt should be ) is even more fraught with problems. For every feminine characteristic I think that each of us could think up of an exception FOR THAT PERSON. Flowered skirts should be feminine but I have a dress with a large flower on it that I think works for me. I have a skirt that's short, white and cotton broderie anglaise but I have a white cotton shirt that goes superbly with it and continues the broderie anglaise style. So I think that we have to fall back on the mentioned "what seems to work for me". It has been mentioned in other threads that there has been mild disagreement on some of the togs worn and I have taken agreement and disagreement in individual cases. I'm sure that some of the things I find acceptable will not be acceptable to some others in terms of shortness of skirts and so on. So is masculineness simply what is defined in the mind of the wearer and/or beholder?

This question "What makes a skirt masculine?" reminds me of some of the mathematical or philosophical questions that are easy to state but difficult to prove. For example, is every number greater than two the sum of two primes?

Or is just what I am saying a load of rubbish?

Sinned wrote:So is masculineness simply what is defined in the mind of the wearer and/or beholder?

For sure, the masculinity of a skirt (or any other inanimate object) is defined by our perceptions of it, and not by any intrinsic properties.

The questions then become:

• What features generally viewed as masculine can a skirt have?
  Why do we care?

I suppose we care in order to reduce the conflict of a man wearing a feminine-denoted garment, which some care about, some don't, and some resolve in other ways.

For me, the question goes deeper. What is Masculinity and Femininity?

I have been looking at some of the skirts and other items worn by members here, carefully taking note of what works, for me in my own mind, and what I think looks "wrong". But some of those items I have dismissed.... I'm asking myself WHY, it looks wrong. My own desire is to wear some combinations that some of you would consider a bit too femme, but in my own mind I justify it with the thought that it's uses a bit too much bodily display "And that's not expected in todays world" but to my mind it should be accepted for men to do this. I realize that some of the outfits I've been dismissing are also "Displaying" but displaying another aspect of that persons personality, which they should be able to do, provided it meets the need of legality and common decency. Frequently, the clothing we call "Feminine" is showing indications of softness, weakness, availability, vulnerability. And none of that should be considered wrong, any more than a girl wearing army boots should be criticized for displaying toughness. But of course, that is frowned on by a large segment of the male population, and not a small proportion of the female. It becomes thought of as a disruption of the norm, which is frequently resisted, and for men, it often becomes threatening to their own masculinity.

I want to show some Beauty, the human body is often beautiful, male or female, I've got a pretty good body for my age, I'm proud of it, I want to show it off, with some taste, I'm not looking for the male equivalent of a tube top and tight stretch fit shorts. Sexy, but classy.

Sorry, rambling a bit, I'm going to go take my meds. Any of this making sense?

I think a lot of it has to do with the distinctions among:

• Masculine vs. feminine
  Generally-accepted vs. taboo
  Legal vs. illegal
  Personal likes vs. dislikes

and I guess we're all looking for some kind of balance.

Beauty, quite simply, is in the eye of the beholder.
The concept of beauty, like fashion, is in constant flux.
The "beauty queens" of a few years ago would now be considered borderline obese at best.
Partly Scot, you are describing your own "style quest" and like me, in time, you'll find it.
I'm guessing we'd be quite different but one is no less valid than the other, it's yours enjoy and ignore the detractors.
Steve.

Caultron wrote:

Sinned wrote:So is masculineness simply what is defined in the mind of the wearer and/or beholder?

For sure, the masculinity of a skirt (or any other inanimate object) is defined by our perceptions of it, and not by any intrinsic properties.

The questions then become:

• What features generally viewed as masculine can a skirt have?
  Why do we care?

I suppose we care in order to reduce the conflict of a man wearing a feminine-denoted garment, which some care about, some don't, and some resolve in other ways.

Great answer and opinion,mate!

The question "What makes a skirt masculine?" is a curious question. Maculinity is a set of qualities, attributes, characteristics, and behaviors typical of (or associated with) being a human male. In the light of this definition, a skirt cannot be masculine, so perhaps a recasting of the question is in order. How is the skirt, an article of clothing, a part of the definition of masculinity? Or, where in the constellation of attributes and properties of being male (and this varies from society to society, and culture to culture) can a skirt be found?

From this perspective, with an eye towards cultural diversity, we see that skirts are not masculine, but they are a part of being a male in many different cultures. I will not attempt an exhaustive review of skirted garments here, but suffice it to say that as we review the cultural catalog of skirts worn by males, we do so from our own cultural lens. For example, if you a native of middle America and have little or no direct personal exposure to foreign lands and males in skirted garments, a skirt on a man just doesn't exist in your definition of masculinity or being male. For this example middle American, it doesn't matter the color, texture, pattern, or trim on the skirt since the skirt itself is not perceived as an appropriate article of clothing for a man. Consequently, discussions around one form of skirt as being more appropriate for a male are nonsensical.

If on the other hand you are a native of the Indian subcontinent, skirts on males is part of your definition of being male (or at the very least doesn’t exclude you from being male). However, there is a cultural form of those skirts that differentiate them from skirted garments worn by females in India. So in India it perhaps makes more sense to talk about the attributes of skirted garments that fall along a continuum of what is more likely to be a skirt worn by a male than by a female, but even here, these elements of skirts are not inherently more masculine or more feminine.

I have lived in many different countries over the years. I don’t have hard and fast rules in my mental model of what others subconsciously subscribe to as platonic forms of male accoutrements. In Greece, where I lived for 2 years, there are a number of examples of skirts for men (the fustanella), the most well-known of which are worn by the Presidential Guards, the Evzones. These multi-pleated skirts are mid-thigh to near the top of the knee, and there are 3 versions worn throughout the year based on the season. It is a rare honor to be chosen for this honor guard duty, and is highly sought after by Greek soldiers (soldiering being one of the ultimate definitions of being male). Women in Greece also wear skirted garments, but often the differences can be quite pronounced with additions of embroidery, applique, floral patterns, etc.

I have lived in Singapore where the Sarong, a floor length skirt, is often worn after hours (and is less often seen today that when I was there 30+ years ago). The Sarong is widely worn throughout South East Asia by men and comes in a wide variety of colors and patterns. Women also wear the Sarong, which is widely regarded as a unisex garment, although there are subtle differences in the colors and patterns that men and women wear. As in India, the gradations of what is more suitable for a man to wear versus a woman are subtle indeed.

My brother lives in Scottland where the kilt exists for both men and women. Men and women from the same clan can wear exact the same tartan design, so the only differences in the skirt itself may be the left over right on the wrapping versus the other way round, and the length of the skirt (Note, recent women’s fashion innovations have added a yoke - the horizontal strip at the top - which is not seen in male kilts). In addition, the overall look can take on a more male presentation versus female with the addition of a large belt (versus a small belt or no belt), the addition of a sporran, the addition of a kilt pin with iconic male symbols, as well as the addition of a typical male shirt, vest, jacket, shoes, flashes, and the like.

It is impossible for anyone to have a truly objective take (as if there is one) on how skirted garments can make a male look more or less masculine, since we all come from different cultural upbringings. What we see is filtered by those experiences and our own idealized images of what other males should look like as well as what we should look like to ourselves. Since most men on this forum want to present to others as males, that really depends on how each of us understand what it means to look masculine. My definition may be broader than some of this forum (and not as broad as others), so when you see pictures of me to be posted soon, you will have a better idea of how I might see myself as a man in a skirt.

Chris

Hello All

In my opinion, a Male Skirt would be one which has enough material
in the front to fall gracefully down when the male is seated, providing
the coverage(read modesty) needed to keep "things" out of site.

Knee length will provide this, just as in a kilt. Anything shorter does
not provide the needed(required) coverage(modesty) for the male.

I suggest a very wide(deep) box pleat, both front & back, providing
ample ability for movement as well as "protection" against accidental
exposure.

Again, this is my opinion.

Your comments are welcome.

Uncle Al

It's interesting to see this thread come a full 360 degrees, not just once, but getting on to almost twice. Going back to "page 1" and reading the original posts from 2007 was rather interesting for this author.

I stick to the notion of believability: if a guy doesn't look outlandish or cartoonish in what he's wearing, and what he's wearing meets all of his practical needs, then it's a "masculine" skirt.

It's also worth noting that we've never managed to nail down what constitutes "masculinity" in the first place. And, no, Homer Simpson does not count.

I've tried analyzing the convere of this ("What makes a garment feminine?") but I'm not sure I got any good answers.

Women's pants, for example, are generally more form-fitted, lighter-weight, less pocketed, thinner-belted, zippered on the side or back, and more variable in color. So I suppose the reverse of those would make a skirt masculine. But none of that provides any new information or insight. It's all in the beholder's head.

Caultron wrote:[...]Women's pants, for example, are generally more form-fitted, lighter-weight, less pocketed, thinner-belted, zippered on the side or back, and more variable in color.

Save for those which have very wide legs that when the wearer is standing still could almost be mistaken for a very long skirt. (That's a style, by the by, which I actually like.)

So I suppose the reverse of those would make a skirt masculine. But none of that provides any new information or insight. It's all in the beholder's head.

The last sentence nails it.

In my opinion, the "end-game" is open season on what one styles one prefers so long as the look isn't cartoonish or otherwise ridiculous. If the overall presentation is male and doesn't draw snickers or wise-cracks then it's good. (For the record, I am not big on androgeny on either sex.)

Uncle Al wrote:In my opinion, a Male Skirt would be one which has enough material
in the front to fall gracefully down when the male is seated, providing
the coverage(read modesty) needed to keep "things" out of site.

I'm not sure that hem length is such an issue. Very short is perfectly acceptable if suitable accompanying garments are worn. Very thick tights or leggings would allow the wearer to get away with sitting in extremely short skirts that would be quite unacceptable without the additional cover they provide.

crfriend wrote:...the "end-game" is open season on what one styles one prefers so long as the look isn't cartoonish or otherwise ridiculous. If the overall presentation is male and doesn't draw snickers or wise-cracks then it's good.

I agree absolutely with the first part of the above, but would temper the cartoonish / ridiculous angle by pointing out that those are characteristics built on unwritten conventions that "open season" would make obsolete. In the meantime (ie before Open Season) Carl's believability test is as good as any.

No matter how long I think about the question of what makes a skirt masculine, I can not come up with a better answer than those offered above. Ultimately it comes down to the overall look and how the individual behaves or presents himself. Clothing is only one of the cues to gender; if all the others are unambiguous then the gender presumption based on clothing becomes pretty much irrelevant.

Have fun, (and don't worry too much about what others think),


Ian.

Milfmog wrote:No matter how long I think about the question of what makes a skirt masculine, I can not come up with a better answer than those offered above. Ultimately it comes down to the overall look and how the individual behaves or presents himself. Clothing is only one of the cues to gender; if all the others are unambiguous then the gender presumption based on clothing becomes pretty much irrelevant.

I'd even go so far as to say, "most of the others" rather than, "all the others"; I think it's down to a preponderance and an overall balance.

I, too, got to thinking (always a bad idea, mind) about this last night and came up with a couple of items that I would "avoid at all costs" including things like deep necklines and trains. The avoidance of deep necklines is down to the fact that they are designed to "draw attention" to things that (most) guys don't have and trains because they're absolutely and completely impractical.

Following that exercise, I found myself watching some Enya videos on YouTube (go ahead and laugh; it's music to soothe the seething beast -- and there's plenty to make me seethe at the moment) and backed off somewhat on my thoughts about trains -- in some certain settings they can be stunning to look at. They do have problems, mind, and I suspect I'd look pretty darned stupid walking up a flight of stairs with the thing slung over my shoulder to keep it off the ground (and especially outdoors) because I just will not deal with helpers. Even the deep neckline, it turns out, is a negotiable; I have two blouses with them that work well with my black waistcoat and draw positive comments, so it's back to the notion of the appearance of the whole and whether it's believable or not.

The rig that Enya wore in Only If is something I'd wear in a heartbeat! (Although I would likely fit it with a better collar.) And it has a small train, unlike the one in Amarantine which is positively vast. (Good luck controlling that thing, monkey boy!)

Have fun, (and don't worry too much about what others think)

Mostly the parenthetical part.

crfriend wrote:I, too, got to thinking (always a bad idea, mind) about this last night and came up with a couple of items that I would "avoid at all costs" including things like deep necklines and trains.

I would add to that: visible garments with straps, especially those with spaghetti straps (such garments are OK hidden beneath other garments), and Victorian hoop skirts which I'd also consider "absolutely and completely impractical".