skirtcafe.org

Coder wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:11 pm 1) No one wants to reduce - it's just not a thing people are accustomed to.

Inflation enters the chat...

Nothing says "reduce consumption" quite like a $200 electric bill for the same usage that $70 would have gotten just five years ago....

moonshadow wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:25 pm

Coder wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:11 pm 1) No one wants to reduce - it's just not a thing people are accustomed to.

Inflation enters the chat...

Nothing says "reduce consumption" quite like a $200 electric bill for the same usage that $70 would have gotten just five years ago....

My bad:

revised quote wrote:1) No one wants to willingly reduce - it's just not a thing people are accustomed to.

There, I fixed it

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:41 am Fossil feel are about as cheap an energy you will ever get. Dig it up and burn it.

Not as true as it used to be. The key number is EROEI (Energy Returned on Energy Invested). When oil was first discovered it took maybe 1 barrel of oil to refine and deliver 100 barrels for use. Since then the figure has dropped to like 5:1 and is only going to get worse. So 16% of all oil is being used to refine oil. If we stopped using oil now we could cut energy consumption by that much.

(Natural gas has a much better return because it barely needs refining).

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:41 am Anything else and you will need to make or something grow something first.

Oil and gas don't come out of the ground spontaneously either, we had to "make" things first there too. And crude oil is useless by itself. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:41 am That's the beauty of Net Zero. You can carry on using fossil fuels as long as you can 'offset' ie pay for it. We, the little people will not be able to afford to 'offset'.
It's all a massive con. What's new?

This is such a misunderstanding of what net zero means it feel deliberate. It's about transforming our energy system to something sustainable while maintaining our society. And fast enough that climate change won't kill off many of us first. We've had several energy transitions before, this one is achievable if we put our minds to it.

rode_kater wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2023 1:03 pm

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:41 am Fossil feel are about as cheap an energy you will ever get. Dig it up and burn it.

Not as true as it used to be. The key number is EROEI (Energy Returned on Energy Invested). When oil was first discovered it took maybe 1 barrel of oil to refine and deliver 100 barrels for use. Since then the figure has dropped to like 5:1 and is only going to get worse.

I worked for a project that refined the oil from Tar Sands underground before bringing it to the surface.  The energy source was combustion of the coke-like residue in the rocks after the oil had been removed.  I was kicked out for refusing to install some apparatus in a way that was dangerous; the project stalled and was then shelved.

Apparently about one third of the World's oil reserves are in Tar Sands and this system would have made their recovery economic.

rode_kater wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2023 1:03 pm

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:41 am Fossil feel are about as cheap an energy you will ever get. Dig it up and burn it.

Not as true as it used to be. The key number is EROEI (Energy Returned on Energy Invested). When oil was first discovered it took maybe 1 barrel of oil to refine and deliver 100 barrels for use. Since then the figure has dropped to like 5:1 and is only going to get worse. So 16% of all oil is being used to refine oil. If we stopped using oil now we could cut energy consumption by that much.

(Natural gas has a much better return because it barely needs refining).

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:41 am Anything else and you will need to make or something grow something first.

Oil and gas don't come out of the ground spontaneously either, we had to "make" things first there too. And crude oil is useless by itself. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:41 am That's the beauty of Net Zero. You can carry on using fossil fuels as long as you can 'offset' ie pay for it. We, the little people will not be able to afford to 'offset'.
It's all a massive con. What's new?

This is such a misunderstanding of what net zero means it feel deliberate. It's about transforming our energy system to something sustainable while maintaining our society. And fast enough that climate change won't kill off many of us first. We've had several energy transitions before, this one is achievable if we put our minds to it.

Firstly, natural gas is a fossil fuel. It is a hydrocarbon.
Secondly don't be mislead by net zero. It is a laudible objective, however it purpose is not to save the world but to save the elite from the prospect of rioting natives and having to hide in bunkers until the coast is clear. A safe landing you might say.

If the world's elite had our best interest at heart they would have put the oil to good and sustainable use from the off. With proper handling it could have lasted thousands of years. Instead they burned the lot in about 100 years. Don't be a mug and believe what you are being told. There is no 'we'. If that were the case I would have had a say in the matter. Before you ask I always vote.

I'm not going to debate this issue it's not worth it. There is a group of people in this world that feeds off the toil of less fortunate, their greed knows no end. Up the revolution!

Barleymower wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2023 9:49 pm If the world's elite had our best interest at heart they would have put the oil to good and sustainable use from the off. With proper handling it could have lasted thousands of years. Instead they burned the lot in about 100 years. Don't be a mug and believe what you are being told. There is no 'we'. If that were the case I would have had a say in the matter. Before you ask I always vote.

Ah, so it's a conspiracy. All oil usage is controlled by an invisible elite, who 100 years ago already knew about the greenhouse effect and future discoveries in photovoltaics and figured a big scheme to screw over as many people as possible. It couldn't possibly be that people just did the what they thought was the best thing at the time and didn't forsee all the consequences.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. The human race in aggregate is extremely stupid, only individuals are smart.

If we'd have used fossil fuels sustainably we wouldn't live in the world we live today. We'd be all much poorer for it (and probably a lot less people). The internet wouldn't exist as it does now. You wouldn't be able to fly across the world for a holiday. We couldn't make all those wind turbines and PV panels or even nuclear power plants. Burning it was not entirely the wrong thing to do, but we do need to get off it soon.

You do have a choice, go live in the woods off the grid and no internet. People don't make that choice much, because it sucks. I wouldn't make that choice either.

Barleymower wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2023 9:49 pm Up the revolution!

I don't think the revolution will be in time, unfortunately. Mainly because there is no shadowy "elite" to revolt against, that would be infinitely easier.

Thanks for letting me know. Moving on