A lull in postings

[Kris]

I think the Atrium was very 'broad minded'. I tried searching for the Atrium a couple of weeks ago, but couldn't find it, does anyone have a link or even know if it still lives?

It's here:
http://www.grevstad.org/cgi-bin/atrium.pl?

Kris

[Big and Bashful]

Well I had a look at the attrium, thanks for the link! Looks like it is getting worked on, its currently anything but user friendly.

[Since1982]

Since there's been some noticable editing in what Peter V. PM'ed me with when he moved it to the responses page as he told me he would do unedited, I'm going to post the entire un-edited PM to the membership. Peter may not be happy with me for doing this but I believe it's in the best interest of the entire SkirtCafe membership to see this "unedited". Especially the part about having someone's "life ended" for shouting abuses at Peter.

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To: Since1982

Thanks, about the english gramma. That will be an ongoing theme. Feel free to correct me at will.

I truly appreciate your PM. at least I can get a feeling of how others feel about the way I post.

And in principle I also agree with the rest.
Although;

And I am certainly not the "boss"of anything, except what I do.
I am though, speaking out as an active member, prepaired to speak his mind, as non offensive as possible, but to my knowledge, address issues as I come across them. I am not easily offended myself.

But would not mind seeing the lives ended of those shouting abusive insults at me in person. . Luckily I am not prepaired to put the rest of my life on the balance for those low lifes.

The fact that you apparently see me as acting as if I am a new boss, suggests that I come across as a strong personality. Which is a compliment. Not wanting to boss anybody myself. There is a lack of clear sensible input on some subjects. And some statements that are as I see them, based on gross misunderstandings, but I could be wrong, and I challenge them. And there are some who are constantly trying to undermine the forum. Newcommers don't undermine. If they are somehow on a wrong track, they can be staged onto the right one. Giving new commers the blame is a very weak way of not accepting progress and diversity. And of a dwindling active attendance from certain groups of skirt wearers. Surely "they" cannot expect others to wait with postings until there is a substantial input from what I would call for want of a better name, in this case, the "manly" skirt wearers. And for what seems to be only a hand full of men.

I don't intend to offend in my postings, and if some are offended, I am sorry, but that may be a sighn that they have shortcommings, which may also be the cause of flame wars. As compared to the people who respectfully state their thoughts, believing them to be for the good of the cafe, and leaving them open to discussion. "You" can be as narrow minded as you wish on a narrow forum, specifically aimed at a narrow target group. Not so on skirt cafe. It is however possible to have a main line of thought, if you like, a basically "manly" way of dressing, which leaves room for deviences to the left and right. When there is enough input from a majority "manly"( hate that term) dressers, then that will keep the balance. If they pack up and leave there is no blame on the rest.

How many dare to voice themselves, when there are some people active, placing statements that others are in disagreement with? I am one of those, who if need be would give my life for what I stand for, and not stand by silently letting others have their say, which I THINK is not correct. Because no matter what is said, no matter how stupid, if it is not challenged, then it becomes a truth. You can't discuss with idiots, but if they do have their say, and no one challenges it, then they are right..

So if "you" have / anybody has, other thoughts on any matters, it must be challenged. It is better to remove troublesome elements if anybody could ever be called that, than to let them have the podium and all be silent. To be silent is to agree.

If there was more input from others who could put in well spoken postings, then I would have less reason to answer as I do. It so happens that there is a shortage of posters who say more than one sentance, so I feel obliged to go into discussion. If I did not react, then "the others would apparently dominate. I sthat what you want?
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This is the entire unedited PM. I wouldn't have posted this if Peter had posted it unedited as he promised me he would. Think what you will. Skip

[Neil]

Wow! quotes within quotes within quotes! where will it end? Yes there is/was The Atrium, there was also IMFF, sadly deceased due to endless spam. I think the Atrium was very 'broad minded'. I tried searching for the Atrium a couple of weeks ago, but couldn't find it, does anyone have a link or even know if it still lives? Oh, quotes can only go 3 deep. you live and learn. Never mind, I will post this without the quotes, I hope it still makes some sort of sense!

I've seen the Atrium from time to time, but it never struck me as a "freestyle" site, or for the more adventurous skirter. It always struck me as a site that had no real mission, which I think really reflected Chris' difficulties with his own understanding of his motivations. These difficulties obviously were resolved by Chris' transition into Kristine, but that transition undermines whatever mission the Atrium had, such as it was. I don't recall anything about IMFF, so I can't comment on that. Thanks for the info.

[Peter v]

Even with the auto club, if most members are racers, then the accent is a racing one. If all the racers but one stop, can the one racer complain that it is the fault of all the others that there is no more an accent on racing? I am sure the racers who left are to blame.
Is that a clear explanation?

Yep, it's very clear, you're telling (not asking) all the so called "manly" skirt wearers to get out of Skirt Cafe as their "type" is not needed here any more. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes that is very wrong. No, I see it as very wrong.
How can you even think that?
There seem to be some who would APPARENTLY like me to say that. But That is definately NOT the case. And you should know better.
There is no take over of the forum by travestites or whatever.
Complainers are not needed if that is what you want to hear.
Explaining is different to telling. If there are 100 members, 98 "normal" skirt wearers, what ever that may be, and two men who are only just slightly different, and all but one normal skirt wearer fall silent, or leave, then the only input is that of the three, of which two are just that little bit different than the "one". So the "one" puts all the blame to the "two" for the slight change in input. There is no change, but a total onesided lack of input from the basic group which fell silent or even left. Great. How blind can you be? It is no wonder, that with increasing member numbers, there will be an increasing input. And regardless of what the others post, "your" group should increase in even proportion, or enough to keep interest. We can all talk at once, there is no sound problem as there may be in a real cafe. And even then, you talk to the persons which want to talk about things that you both share, regardless of what all the rest talk about.
And does it matter what others discuss, if the group which the complaintants belong to have the same amount of discussions that they would otherwise have?

If the group who are now the complainers,or to which group they belong, were to grow with the expanding membership, there would be nothing to complain about. And who says that that group has not grown, possibly greater than others. Again what is the real problem? And as I had already explained, unless this is a very narrow specified restricted forum, you will see a variety of interests being discussed. Surely there is still enough of interest for "the complainers." (as this is the only "group" who has a "Problem" with things as they are now) And what is the problem? I haven't heard any substantial facts about what the real issue is. Come with facts, not complaints. There is no limit to the postings any group can make, nor how active any group is to be. So if your "group" whatever that is, is normally active, what does that have to do with what the others are discussing? What are they to blame for?

I suppose that women are not allowed to drive high performance cars, otherwise it would not be manly any more for men to drive them.

All the members seem to be satisfied, except an apparent handful of members that would rather sulk and complain, without giving any substantial reasons for them feeling so. . It is not as if there are less topics. If there is nothing being said for you guys, others are hardly to blame for that, or is everybody compulsary to discuss kilts and bland denim skirts or whatever it is that you wish to discuss? You tell me, tell the forum. Only complaining and giving others the blame, and for what? Doesn't change anything. I think that this forum caters enough for all. At certain moments there may be more liveliness on certain issues than on others, should that be regulated?

I feel that i am intentionally being targetted, getting the blame shoved my way, and I don't accept that. Read the postings in an unbiased way. If I wanted to say that certain people should not be here, I would say so. And that would be a personal statement. I could say that I would think it better for the forum, that too being a personal statement. I do say that people who can only senslessly complain do not contribute in a positive way to the forum. And it doesn't make a hoot how they are dressed.
There has been some complaining going on, instead of structural discussion. If anything, I'm asking the complainers to stop complaining, and keep on posting, in a non complaining way. And asking if anything, for more activity from members, and I can't say what type of wearers they are, can you? If the complainers are correct, and most men are wearers as themselves, then a more active participation will restore any unbalance if any, if that is the case at all, as I am only guessing, and I suspect all will be well.

It seems a little like being an executive, who is listened to until he comes in wearing a skirt, then he is blamed for everything that is said to be wrong....

I'm doing my damnedest to get you guys talking, stop complaining, start constructive discussion.

[Peter v]

For someone who starts with "no offence" you're sure piling the offence on pretty heavily.

Peter v's words don't offend me. Note that he is posting from the Netherlands. It seems that English is not his first language. The only word of his that looks offensive to me is "narrow-minded". He means "interested in only a narrow range of things", not "tolerant of only a narrow range of behaviour, intolerant of anything different". His analogy with someone who reads a car magazine only for the bits about racing cars makes that clear.

Yep, it's very clear, you're telling (not asking) all the so called "manly" skirt wearers to get out of Skirt Cafe as their "type" is not needed here any more. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't read peter v's comments like that at all. Quite the contrary, in fact.
He says "not all men are the same" and "There is enough for all on this forum".

I agree with Peter. If you want to discuss manly skirts, go ahead! If you want to discuss kilts, go ahead! There's even a "Kilts, Kilts" area especially for you. There is little traffic on this forum as it stands. There is plenty of room in it for all of us with all our differences. If we were to split into 2 or more forums, it would be all the more inconvenient for any of us who want to read all of them.

Thank you very very much, I am glad that atleast one person has understood what I intended to say. It seems that you have read my posting as I intended it to be read. It is no easy task, to post and have it read as intended. As even examples intended to make intentions even clearer have to be explained so as not to be in turn mis-interpretated.

[Peter v]

"This is the entire unedited PM. I wouldn't have posted this if Peter had posted it unedited as he promised me he would. Think what you will. Skip"

Well thanks skip, what do you think to gain with that?
At least I show that I have emotions, do you have them, emotions? Are you emotionless? Or do you just not tell anybody?
And I did place my pm, did not have to, but did as you had asked, not promising you anything, but edited as I thought just for the forum. I have nothing to hide. Do you?