What am I REALLY wanting.

[Peter v]

Hi Sapphire, I do know, I have enjoyed watching the Beverly hillbillys, the first runs. But you're far more good looking than her! I suspect
I have read "LIl Abner "in the SUN or the HERALD in Australia ( before 1973,)
and I suspect the beverly hillbillies may have been moddelled from that comic. I would LOVE to get a book with all the strips from Lil abner. If it were ever made. Great stuff.

I just had a brain wave, wear a very sturdy skirt, length to the ground, put a couple of leaf blowers on your back, couple thenm with pipes to the skirt, and "hover "over the snow and ice.

( It won't work - See "Myth busters" but it would get a laugh at a party

Peter v.

[Departed Member]

No I'm not a travi, but bejond the simple exchanging of a pair of pants for a simple ""Manly"" skirt. Those who do that are still very "boxed in" in the men's fashion limitations, but that is OK.
Peter v.

Peter, there are a substantial number of us who don't wish to move much beyond the tr*user/skirt 'exchange' - for a variety of (personal) reasons. For many, that is not just our chosen path, but our 'fashion choice'. We do not feel "boxed in", by any means. We are perfectly comfortable, both mentally and physically, with our choices. With all due respect, it is getting mildly irritating to be subjected to constantly being told we are 'limiting' our 'fashion freedom'. You are welcome to explore your particular box(es), but please, stop continually criticising ours!

[simon]

Wearing free fashion ( mostly women's fashions also means that i am constantly looking for other combinations than I have now. That was unimaginable when I was only wearing men's fashion. ( but that does have advantages, it is inexpensive, easy to choose from a small garderobe, and dresses up fast. ie no pantys etc. ) But I wouldn't want miss this. I should have started thirty years ago.

Sorry for the off topic.

Not at all, this kind of discussion (both for and against it) was exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to start. What you have described is much like I imagine it would be, as I said, it's this that I am really attracted to about skirt wearing. While, I don't feel like I can really do that without losing my perception (and equally importantly my wife's) of masculinity.

I have worn all the "prettiest" skirts and dresses I could find in private. I love the way it feels, but at the same time time, I feel rediculous and that translates to thinking I look rediculous. This makes me think of my wife saying that most women don't really have fashion freedom. Yes, the average store certainly contains a much wider variety of womens clothes, but that doesn't mean that she kind find anything that fits, feels good, looks good and is a style she likes. (Although despite her fears about me going femme on her or wanting men instead she would support me.)

So thanks for sharing about your experiences, and saying that you go for skirts that are not necessarily manly, heeled shoes etc. I'd love to hear how you (and significant others in your life) perceive you. Although I get the impression that many people here don't share your opinion, that's exactly the point.

At the moment, I still don't know if choosing to wear skirts will make me happier than trousers. I imagine that most of the men here have said yes to that. Will the effect on my happiness be just the same regardless of the if I choose kilts/sarongs/denim skirts or if I dress entirely from the womens department? Neither is going to make me happy by itself, and either could interfere with actually making me happy. I can't say for sure without doing it, and even then I don't know what else I could have done if I dedicated my energy to somewhere else.

At the moment, I'm moving towards two things. Trying out some of the more easily accepted skirt options while still pushing some boundaries and comfort zones that way. And also taking more care of my normal appearance. This is because I believe a large part of my interest in skirt wearing is to look good (not the right word, but it will do). But there's a huge scope to do that without skirts, so I want to explore that. On the other hand, now that I have started the journey of wearing skirts I have no interest in stopping it.

[JRMILLER]

Simon,
I too have been accused of going femme by my wife for wanting to wear skirts, especially florals. Egad, women move back and forth between feminine looking clothing and masculine looking clothing in the course of a single day! It doesn't mean that they are no longer women, or feminine! My wife recently borrowed my Travelsmith hat (has a brim). It's a very masculine looking hat, but as soon as she put it on, poof, she still looked feminine in it! Amazing transformation, I wondered if it was the same hat!

There should be no reason why a guy can't move back and forth between masculine looking clothing and feminine looking clothing without giving up their masculinity. Masculinity appears to be the most fragile thing on the planet the way we "protect it" and fear to loose it. It really is ridiculous, if we actually played the balls we claim to have, none of this would be an issue!

Perhaps femininity is stronger than masculinity, could be femme trumps macho -- whoa, there's a thought!

[crfriend]

I too have been accused of going femme by my wife for wanting to wear skirts, especially florals.

Floral patterns can work perfectly well on a man, especially if they're a bit subdued. One of my favourite skirts is a subdued floral (purple, dark yellow, and black come to mind) pleated number made of rayon. It's a magnificent skirt and looks perfectly at home on my decidedly male form. Hawaiian patterns might work, as well, but may be difficult to find in anything but sarongs (which are guys' garments anyway). I think the big bugaboo with florals for guys are the very light pastel ones; sticking to subdued ones or bold primaries might be best initially.

My wife recently borrowed my Travelsmith hat (has a brim). It's a very masculine looking hat, but as soon as she put it on, poof, she still looked feminine in it!

"Is that you Indiana?"

Masculinity appears to be the most fragile thing on the planet the way we "protect it" and fear to loose it. It really is ridiculous, if we actually played the balls we claim to have, none of this would be an issue!

I think that it's the way that the notion has been backed into an increasingly tight corner that's causing the angst. Whilst it's axiomatic that "it takes b@lls [for a man] to wear a skirt", that's not often recognised or appreciated.

Perhaps femininity is stronger than masculinity, could be femme trumps macho -- whoa, there's a thought!

They're two horns on the same bull, I think. It's just that the bull tends to favour one side over the other when deciding to gore some bystander.

[sapphire]

A lot of horned females hoofstock also have horns, just not as showy as the males but equally dangerous. SO watch out!

Anyway, that dark floral skirt is *MY* skirt

[staticsan]

It wasn't all that long ago that a man couldn't get away with wearing a pink shirt, let alone a floral skirt. However, times are changing. I had a work colleague whose masculinity was most certainly not in doubt when he wore a pink (dress) shirt.

[Peter v]

No I'm not a travi, but bejond the simple exchanging of a pair of pants for a simple ""Manly"" skirt. Those who do that are still very "boxed in" in the men's fashion limitations, but that is OK.
Peter v.

Peter, there are a substantial number of us who don't wish to move much beyond the tr*user/skirt 'exchange' - for a variety of (personal) reasons. For many, that is not just our chosen path, but our 'fashion choice'. We do not feel "boxed in", by any means. We are perfectly comfortable, both mentally and physically, with our choices. With all due respect, it is getting mildly irritating to be subjected to constantly being told we are 'limiting' our 'fashion freedom'. You are welcome to explore your particular box(es), but please, stop continually criticising ours!

I'm sorry, but it wasn't a criticism, but placing it in the total vieuw of skirt wearing. As I said, that is OK.

I agree with your vision, totally. But skirt wearing goes from exchanging the trouser for a skirt to full femme, but with still being a man, and wanting to be seen as one. In that broad scala, the first step, is still on par with what we talk about so often, the drab men's fashion etc. This we refer to as the box, and we step out of that box when we wear skirts. But as there is otherwise no change in clothing other than the skirt itself, then with regards to "the pants " box, it is still pretty much "boxed in". But there is NOTHING wrong with that choice. BUT IS FULLY OK> It is ONE of the fashion choices, IN THE BROAD SCALA OF SKIRT WEARING.

Sorry if you misunderstood me. And please don't read discussions about more elaborate skirt wearing as a criticisme to what you may do. We are all in the same boat, from the captain to the passanger.

Peter v.

Peter v.

[Since1982]

This we refer to as the box, and we step out of that box when we wear skirts.

In the words of a famous (in the United States) native American actor, Jay Silverheels, playing Tonto to the "Lone Ranger" when being attacked by a horde of angry Indians, after the Lone Ranger said, Gosh, Tonto, we are really in trouble now!................."Who's this WE, White Man?"

Point being, please don't lump all skirt wearing males in the WE box.
Case in point, Ru Paul wears a skirt, I'm not nowhere noway in any box with Ru Paul.

[Departed Member]

Sorry if you misunderstood me. And please don't read discussions about more elaborate skirt wearing as a criticisme to what you may do. We are all in the same boat, from the captain to the passanger. Peter v.

I think I understand where you are coming from, Peter! I believe you are very brave to push boundaries in a country where womenfolk are only just beginning to fight back against "Tr*user Tyranny" after some 20+ years of oppression. When I first started visiting the Netherlands, over 25 years ago, it was rare to see anyone in a skirt, other than a few at weekends! Nowadays, probably as many as 1 in 7 women have 'reclaimed' skirts as a daily option, so, paradoxically, a 'man-in-a-skirt' will attract less attention. However, you are fortunate to live in a society, where eccentricities are less likely to arouse potential antagonism. The same cannot be said (or indeed, assumed) for folk in other countries.

From reading posts here over a number a years, there are very few "Peacocks" amongst our number. The majority appear to be happy to go about their respective lives NOT making 'fashion statements'. That said, I don't accept that what some may regard, or dismiss, as 'drab' is but a stage (or 'box') on the way to some sort of 'fashion valhalla'. Whilst it is very interesting to read about your personal 'journey', be aware that some of us regard skirts purely as a 'lifestyle' choice, not a 'fashion' one.

[crfriend]

Anyway, that dark floral skirt is *MY* skirt

Ouch.

[r1g0r]

A lot of horned females hoofstock also have horns, just not as showy as the males but equally dangerous. SO watch out!

Anyway, that dark floral skirt is *MY* skirt

_________________________________________________________

a joke:

this lady walks up to a rancher and starts talking
"why don't your cow 'ave any 'orns?"

the rancher looks where she's pointing and replies
"well mum, there's lot's of reasons why a cow might not 'ave any 'orns."

"some cows don't grow 'orns till they're a year old"
"some cows don't grow 'orns till they've calved"
"some cows don't never grow 'orns.

"reason THAT cow don't 'ave any 'orns, is because it's a bloody 'orse!"

(crickets chirping in the silence)

[Peter v]

Sorry if you misunderstood me. And please don't read discussions about more elaborate skirt wearing as a criticisme to what you may do. We are all in the same boat, from the captain to the passanger. Peter v.

I think I understand where you are coming from, Peter! I believe you are very brave to push boundaries in a country where womenfolk are only just beginning to fight back against "Tr*user Tyranny" after some 20+ years of oppression. When I first started visiting the Netherlands, over 25 years ago, it was rare to see anyone in a skirt, other than a few at weekends! Nowadays, probably as many as 1 in 7 women have 'reclaimed' skirts as a daily option, so, paradoxically, a 'man-in-a-skirt' will attract less attention. However, you are fortunate to live in a society, where eccentricities are less likely to arouse potential antagonism. The same cannot be said (or indeed, assumed) for folk in other countries.

From reading posts here over a number a years, there are very few "Peacocks" amongst our number. The majority appear to be happy to go about their respective lives NOT making 'fashion statements'. That said, I don't accept that what some may regard, or dismiss, as 'drab' is but a stage (or 'box') on the way to some sort of 'fashion valhalla'. Whilst it is very interesting to read about your personal 'journey', be aware that some of us regard skirts purely as a 'lifestyle' choice, not a 'fashion' one.

Thank you, Merlin, but I do think that by CHOSING skirts, to wear that is, as a choice, it does open up so much fashion possibilities, even if only in "man's " skirts, and staying by the same materials and colours found in men's pants fashions, there being more choice with skirts, I would think than you would find in pants, and then going beyond that, still in skirts, there is indeed a fashion walhalla to be found in skirts.

By getting you driving licence, you may get a old mini or something, and drive that ( drab old car ((I think mini's are super)) the rest of your life, keep it at that or change dramatically the colour or another car, from docile to sports and so on. With that step taken, the driving licence, you can drive virtually any car that you wish. ferari's, jaguars, you name it. Ownership permitting.

With respect to the "walhalla", the skirts you speak of, are I imagine drab,
(not my words, but the description of pants and some men's fashion in general, with respect to the difference of men's to other ((women's)) fashions)
which seems to be the generally accepted description for men's fashion here on the forum.

But that is only words used to put the type of skirts on a fashion scale, graph if you like, showing all skirts, from ""Drab"" to with pleats, wide and souple, over the top bright and flowery. This doesn't mean that any skirt is more or better than the other. When talking about fashion and the colours, liveliness, then your skirts as I imagine, would be down low on the scale, but excellent in their own right, especially when you want that type of skirt, even though you may otherwise wear more exclusive, even outrageous skirts.

So describing the change of colour, liveliness, styling, of which there is I think virtually none, then to describe that, in a language that I suppose most would understand, I would compare it to the situation beforehand, and say that the only thing that has changed, is the skirt itself, but not any fashion change. Just extending the box fashion wise. There is always a big step made by all, who go from pants to skirts. This is the same for all skirt wearers, be it denim or flowery skirts. That step is the choice we make, the choice to wear skirts.

None of us is more or less a man in this, and none of us are forced or pushed in any way whatsoever to wear anything other than what he himself wants to. We do not discriminate, we all wear skirts. We are all skirt wearers.
"we all have driving licences, and are therefore drivers, no matter what brand of car we own. )"

The only problem is putting it all down correctly in writing, and keep in mind, that there are two issues,

One: the choice to wear a (any) skirt as opposed to pants. That is the step which I must assume all members have done.

Two: The wearing of skirts opens up inseperable from it a whole walhalla of fashion possibilities, that we are free to choose from, if we wish to. That choice is not possible if you only wear pants.

I hope that this explanation clarifies some things, not that we don't understand each other, but this being a forum, and more people reading and contributing I think that it is a good thing to "talk"to each other, and try to discuss and clarify some things that may be confusing.

All members are free to mix in the discussion, and so with input from all sides we may finally get a clear picture of how we can describe what we are actually doing.

Peter v

[Departed Member]

I appreciate your candidness, Peter! Your invective is, by all accounts, most compelling. However, I do not regard your premise that what you refer to as "drab" is at the bottom of a scaled of, shall we call it, 'skirtedness"? (I'm assuming that "Skirt Valhalla" to be 'frilly, flowery and flouncy!, by the way!). It is purely an option that transcribes to 'masculine'. In 'feminist' terms, it is actually at the pinnacle! In pure 'skirt' terms, it, as you rightly say, is probably no better than any other. But in 'man' terms, it, based on contemporary perception, is 'that most likely to be generally acceptable' as 'menswear'. Whether that 'acceptance' proves to be family, friend or workmate, it is, I feel, at the crux of extending that level (of mutual acceptance) to society in general.

Although it wouldn't 'bother' most of us here personally, the choice of immediate 'extreme-ism' is, I'm convinced, in fact detrimental to the perceived cause, at this stage in time. If "Tr*user-ism" is, as you acknowledge, indeed "drab" - when worn by either gender, I would readily concur. Women-kind has been subjected (subjugated, even) to unbelievable pressures to don tr*users over the second half of the last century. I know, particularly from the experiences of my own mother, wife and female friends, how the 'feminazis' have attempted to over-run the various 'feminists' causes and effectively force women into bi-furcation. Similar elements in society wish to crush any attempt by men to adopt skirts as a 'lifestyle' choice - as men.

Now, I don't do "drab", but I do do 'black' if we are to tread the 'fashion road' (which I heartily despise!), for the same reason as many women do. If you look, as I do, rather like a slightly slimmer version of "Jabba the Hutt", then even the "fashion gurus" seem agreed on this one! The 'denim' road suggests pockets, belt loops & flies - top of the tree with most blokes - something to aspire to - top 'box', in fact!

Anyway, thanks for bringing much life to the discussions here, Peter - hope to see you at the "Airbasis Leeuwarden" Open Day some time!

[Peter v]

This we refer to as the box, and we step out of that box when we wear skirts.

In the words of a famous (in the United States) native American actor, Jay Silverheels, playing Tonto to the "Lone Ranger" when being attacked by a horde of angry Indians, after the Lone Ranger said, Gosh, Tonto, we are really in trouble now!................."Who's this WE, White Man?"

Point being, please don't lump all skirt wearing males in the WE box.
Case in point, Ru Paul wears a skirt, I'm not nowhere noway in any box with Ru Paul.

OK correction, I seem to read that some members speak of ....."the box"etc.

We is generally speaking. Not that every member speaks that way, or thinks along those lines. We meaning more of us.

Peter v.