Contradance weekend - I nearly wore a skirt ...

[JRMILLER]

Charlie,
Told her what you guys said and she now says she will pick out a skirt for herself too! Ah, progress! I like seeing her in a skirt, she's not real sold on seeing me in one yet, but at least it doesn't turn her stomach anymore! She just kind of smiles. Going to the dance will be a big test -- for both of us.

[Peter v]

Hi there, quote Charlie:
"marital harmony. My wife is very supportive and I'll do nothing to harm that support. She just needs to get used to the idea of me wearing a skirt, as opposed to a kilt or sarong, in public (something I need to do as well). "

I fully understand how that goes. And it may be the right way to go. But I personnaly think that in general, we should be more upstanding about what we do. We are skirt wearers or are not. If we are, then we wear skirts when ever we want to. End of story. Otherwise it may be an endless story of it actually being not normal, but some people may accept it and then we may by their grace be allowd to wear a skirt. What others make of it, or if others have to see us more often, a few times before they start to realise that there is nothing ""wrong"" about it is their problem. Not ours.
It is ofcourse everybody's prerogative to do as they find suitable for their own situation.

Sometimes wearing a skirt in a new situation is like going ice skating on new ice, stepping onto natural ice for the first time, going skating, but being very careful to spot any wakes, thin places in the ice. That can be very hazardous, but wearing a skirt is not, should not be hazardous. It should be done resolutely.

Taking care with what we do (in skirts) is sensible, but we should not over do it. We (from the storys I have read) are constantly saying, that we ( to be careful, letting the others get a general idea of who we are before confronting them with a skirt ) "should", no, that it may be wise, or in your benefit not to be seen in a skirt at the first contact., and slowly build up to it. But WHY? I personaly feel that that is just what the others want you to do, be intimidated, to be made unsecure about your choice of wearing a skirt.

I naturally understand the personal arguments being made for particular situations, but in principle I think that it is a wrong way to go. ie: what would happen if you went to a dance for the first time in a skirt. Would they stop you from entering, or have you removed? Why would they treat you any different after a few visits than they would the first time? Who are those people that may be so unaccepting, why dance with them if they are so?

I feel that it looks as if we are still hanging on to the values we had before we stepped out of the box. That is that men in skirts are not normal and have somehow to prove to others that they are worthy of interacting with others when so dressed, and have to earn acceptance, which is utter rubbish.

Why are we so scared of other people not being willing to accept us as we are? What is wrong with being our selves? This may stem from our own feeling of being not the 100 percent sure of ourselves, which is then reflected in the way we act. What is the advantage of being as THEY want to see us? NONE. We have made a choice. That choice is not to live by other's rules, but by our own. More I would say, be proud of yourself, and go in a skirt every where, don't let the thought of what others MAY think hinder you in any way. If you would want an easy life, then don't wear other clothes than other men do. Be a clone. As we have chosen to be ourselves, which entails skirt wearing, we should go OUR way.

I am however very happy to read that when others do take skirt wearing in steps, treading carefully at first, that it does work, for their good understanding with their wives, as wel as with some events such as going to new dance venues.

Peter v.

[Pythos]

Nice and concise response peter.

[Charlie]

Told her what you guys said and she now says she will pick out a skirt for herself too! Ah, progress! I like seeing her in a skirt, she's not real sold on seeing me in one yet, but at least it doesn't turn her stomach anymore! She just kind of smiles. Going to the dance will be a big test -- for both of us.

Good for both of you! Hopefully, when she finds how much fun contradancing in a skirt is, your wife will understand why some men also like to dance in skirts.

Charlie

[AMM]

Going to the dance [in a skirt] will be a big test -- for both of us.

I'd advise picking one that you are both (emotionally) comfortable with you wearing, or at least as comfortable as you can get. The more natural you feel, the more you will be able to focus on the other people, and the more everyone will pick up that it's no big deal.

I'd also advise wearing the skirt and the whole outfit for a while at home, and moving around a lot in it: walking, sitting, getting in and out of the car, changing your shoes, climbing ladders, and -- most important of all -- using the loo! You may find some things that seem OK for a few minutes, but are less workable or less (physically) comfortable after a few hours. Oh, and have your wife watch while you spin and kick and do everything you can think of that may make the skirt fly up, so you know just how much or how little other folks will see. Again, more for your own comfort than because anyone is going to make a big deal about it.

The same applies if you're wearing a kilt, or any MUG. The only difference is that in a kilt, it's less likely that someone will assume you're planning to chang your name to "Jane" this year

[AMM]

Peter:

I appreciate your wish that we (men) could be more courageous. But I get the feeling that you don't appreciate the experiences that many of us have had that make us cautious.

In our modern society, where roads are repaired, police maintain order, constitutional rights are a given, and water comes out of the tap, all without our having to personally see to these things, it's easy to forget that our safe, comfortable existence depends upon a very complex social network. (It's a little bit like some sort of elaborate "con game", except that the result of everyone being "conned" is a society we like to live in.) We begin to get the idea that we can do "whatever we want" regardless of other people's opinions, because we don't see how the whole thing depends upon everybody working together in the right way, even though nobody really understands how what they do affects how society runs.

Every now and then, things go awry -- some people stop doing whatever it was that they were doing that kept everything going smoothly and start doing something somewhat different -- and the society goes off the rails: think Bosnia in the 1990's, or Rwanda, or Germany in the 1930's. On a lesser scale, the McCarthy era here in the USA in the 1950's.

Even when things are supposedly running smoothly, those who aren't part of the dominant social group -- for example, black people here in the USA, or gypsies in Europe -- experience on a daily basis how bad it can get when this mysterious social network isn't working for your benefit. It's not just a few racists, it's somehow the whole "system" (as we used to say in the 1960's), and despite decades of effort by many people, we in the USA haven't been able to turn it around for our black citizens.

The same thing can happen to ordinary citizens, if something makes their fellow citizens see them as a threat. Do something out of the ordinary (or something ordinary) which causes the right few people to see you as a sex offender, or a terrorist, for instance, and once the snowball starts rolling, it doesn't matter what you've really done.

So those of us who have been around for a while and seen how wrong things can go have good reason for being a little cautious about violating widely-held social strictures. Sometimes you do something really different, and everything goes fine. And sometimes you do it, and the next day, or the next decade -- all hell breaks loose.

[JRMILLER]

AMM,
Thanks for your advice about wearing the outfit around home first, hadn't really considered that, but it makes sense. Funny thing is, the kilt I have (see below) worn with a white polo gives me the feel of "Andrews School for Girls" image -- they worn some sort of plaid skirt and a white top. I am still trying to wrap my head around it and decide between it or the denim --

[JRMILLER]

AMM,
Thanks for your posting about social norms and society in general. I hadn't really thought of things in those terms, rather, thought about the impact closer to home with family and friends. However, your point is very valid and if and when "they come for" the xxxx (where xxxx = the repressed group for the day), could be they will come for the social deviants known as "men in skirts" too.

[Pythos]

Just supplying more ammo for the ignorant and biggoted.

[crfriend]

Just supplying more ammo for the ignorant and biggoted.

That's possible, but in doing so, he gave us a chance to give the ammunition a good looking-over so we have a better idea of what sorts of weapons it might be used in and potentially how to defuse it.

The points brought up were really very salient for this group. The overwhelming percentage of times we will experience no untoward problems with our attire. But, the "overwhelming percentage of the time" is most emphatically not one hundred percent of the time.

This is a case of "pick your battles". There are places I happily wear skirts "out and about" in public; conversely, there are places I would not. Am I being silly -- a worrywart -- with this? Quite possibly. But what if I'm not being silly and I'm risking a thorough physical thrashing at the hands of the "less clueful"? For instance, I wonder what became of Jeff in Philadelphia; we haven't heard from him in a while; I hope he's allright and those in his (perhaps "hard") community didn't cause him needless grief.

The other thing that I'm personally very fortunate about is that I have an entirely supportive partner when it comes to my sartorial choices. Sure, she'll call it out when I commit a blunder, but that's direct criticism of immediate looks, not of general concept. Many of the lads here don't have that "luxury", and find it easier to compromise with their significant others than go toe-to-toe and fight about it. Unless skirt-wearing is an overt obsession, it's likely not worth sacrificing a long-term relationship over -- a short-term one, possibly, because there's not a huge investment in it, but not a long-term one where there is a large investment.

Take the following quote: "Skirt Cafe is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men [...]". I take this to mean that our forum here should not be about browbeating guys into wearing skirts and not about fostering relationship stress by focussing only on the man. I believe it should be about support for guys who have a slightly "different" fashion sense than the rest of Western civilisation; it should be about supporting and encouraging their significant others that there's really no harm in a bloke wearing a skirt so long as he does so carefully, rationally, and thoughtfully; and to present an example for wider society that guys that choose to wear skirted garments are normal, they're stable, they're responsible, and they're precisely the sorts of folks you'd like to have as neighbours.

[Peter v]

Peter:

I appreciate your wish that we (men) could be more courageous. But I get the feeling that you don't appreciate the experiences that many of us have had that make us cautious. .......---........

And sometimes you do it, and the next day, or the next decade -- all hell breaks loose.

Thank you fully for adding this to (my) our discussion.
You are very right, unfortunately. I do appreciate the xeperiences, hav had some minor experiences my self.

I do however try to talk in such a way that i do not suggest that we go hide under the stairs.

It is like driving a car. Drive confidently, but be aware of danger when it is evident, like swerving oncomming traffic, crossings etc. When people want to start driving, you don't say, "don't even try, because there are many accidents and it can be dangerous". You say, "driving is great fun, and often a neccessity to go to work. But learn to drive well and be very aware of dangerous situations, and be prepared. Accept that there is an element of danger in it but that on the whole it is an enjoyable experience."

Try to encourage and not discourage.

We must judge for ourselves which situation may be hazardous to us and what is open road. But on the whole, let people see who you are. They are not interested in you building it up slowly. Do we go very stealthily around corners, being extremely cautious of what may be around the other side? No, we go around the corner, in a normal pace, being careful not to run into anything or body, and will see what there is to see.

Unfortunately, as you justly state, we cannot always present ourselves unannounced without ever having any negative feedback.

I do very much agree on what you wrote: Quote:

I'd advise picking one that you are both (emotionally) comfortable with you wearing, or at least as comfortable as you can get. The more natural you feel, the more you will be able to focus on the other people, and the more everyone will pick up that it's no big deal.

I'd also advise wearing the skirt and the whole outfit for a while at home, and moving around a lot in it: walking, sitting, getting in and out of the car, changing your shoes, climbing ladders, and -- most important of all -- using the loo! You may find some things that seem OK for a few minutes, but are less workable or less (physically) comfortable after a few hours. Oh, and have your wife watch while you spin and kick and do everything you can think of that may make the skirt fly up, so you know just how much or how little other folks will see. Again, more for your own comfort than because anyone is going to make a big deal about it.

The same applies if you're wearing a kilt, or any MUG. The only difference is that in a kilt, it's less likely that someone will assume you're planning to chang your name to "Jane" this year" unquote.

By doing this, being sure of your self is very important. The more self assured you are, the better it is, the less any one will think anything of what you are wearing, apparently what you are wearing giving you a good feeling, and not being something that gives immediate reason to question, by the very nature of your own positive aura.

As we are still pioneering, we can expect to run into some headwind now and again, so if we expect the wind to be not in our favour, we should manoevre appropriately until it is clear sailing again.

We have a wealth of life experience amongst us, but it still ids not easy to express things in all aspects without writing a whole book on the subject, so that is where this forum works excellently, we each can fill in the gaps and errors that others have left.

Ultimately we wil have said what we wanted to, and hopefully have helped each other in the process.

Peter v.

[alexthebird]

Just supplying more ammo for the ignorant and biggoted.

I'd be careful with statements this broad. Right off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen legitmate reasons for caution.

1 Some people just don't like being at the center of attention. While wearing a skirt doesn't usually mean that you attract attention, sometimes it does.
2 We've had several discussions about the importance (or lack thereof) of gender identity, and they always meander off into different areas. Gender identity is real and clothing is a part of it, like it or not.
3 We spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff. Those we love almost never do, unless our actions force them to. Their reactions are thus not carefully considered.
4 Gender identity means different things to different cultures. As much as I believe in what I'm doing, I still hesitate to test the waters where I think the testorone levels are particularly high.
5 Homophobia is real, and a significant part of the populace will perceive a man adopting "feminine" symbols as being gay, and thus open to attack.
6 I like to be perceived as being fashionable and well-dressed. It isn't always easy to know that the top and shoes that I'm wearing work with the skirt I want to wear.
7 It took me a long time (40+ years!) to figure out that my inclination towards skirts was not a manifestation of some kind of exhibitionism or transgenderism. It's just that I like 'em and I look good in 'em. That kind of confusion is real.
8 How many of us are in committed relationships where we truly love our spouses and are more willing to put their comfort and satisfaction above our own? And then how many of us perceive that our assertion of clothing choice would make our spouses uncomfortable?
9 We may not want to subject our children to ridicule because of our clothing preferences.
10 Because wearing skirts is often linked with transgenderism, crossdressing and other "perversions," it is linked with sexuality. Sexuality is private, not public, so publicly wearing a skirt can be viewed as flirting with public sexuality.
11 If you've got a variety of interests and community commitments, do you want to be known only as the "guy who wears a skirt?"
12 It ain't easy being the first at anything.

I'm not trying to argue against skirt wearing. In fact, until enough of us do it on a regular basis, it will always be considered weird. Someone has to be the pioneer and in my part of the world (Center City/South Philadelphia), it looks like it's up to me and this other guy I've seen about a half-dozen times in a utilikilt. But I appreciate anyone else's caution - you'll be ready when you're ready.

[Peter v]

Yes, crfriend, your last quote "That's possible, but in doing so, he "and so on,
is very true. And we surely must in our pleading for support for men to wear skirts with pride and be reassured about it, mention that we are not allone in this, and that our partners need to go with us if it is not to become a problem in the partnership. But not to present it as a momentary madness that others, partners included can dismiss at their discression.

We are wearing skirts, fact, but we also realise that others may benifit by being given time to place it in their own vision of life. That we are understanding and willing to help others to adjust to and finally fully understand and support skirt wearing. That once we have begun wearing, we shall not stop being ourselves and will not stop wearing skirts.

We cannot deny who WE really are, and must for our selves go unhinderd forth. But not at all costs. You may legally have the right of way on the road, but the other may not have seen you, and crossing your path. Don't stand on your rights, and have a collision, but give him room, and that may be a learning process for both to become fully equal traffic participants and live in harmony with each other in the future.

Peter v

[AMM]

... and if and when "they come for" the xxxx (where xxxx = the repressed group for the day), could be they will come for the social deviants known as "men in skirts" too.

This actually wasn't on my mind when I wrote my post, although you have an important point here. My point was a little more philosophical and nebulous.

What was on my mind was that the way society works and supplies us with its benefits is beyond anybody's understanding, and if you are (like me) a techie who has been burned once too often messing around with something you don't understand, you get in the habit of proceeding very cautiously when dealing with anything you don't understand ("grok") backwards and forwards. The more so since the ones who get "burned" the most are usually not the people who were doing the "messing with" that caused the fire.

Not everyone has such a conservative way of dealing with things, which is why much of History during my lifetime has been a working out of the Law of Unintended Consequences, or, if you prefer, a series of illustrations of the proverb "Fools rush in ...."

[JRMILLER]

AMM,
Yes, techie here too. Burned many times by my own curiosity, if I were a cat, I would probably have used up most of my nine.

The skirt thing has caught my curiosity too and I am moving forward one inch at a time with it -- carefully testing the path ahead. Not exactly Arnold style, but I will get there in one piece.

Makes me wonder how many of us are techies.