Regarding the complete lack of awareness of fashion history in the mainstream

[Damon]

In the mid 1960s Bentalls Department store in Kingston sold a few dresses for boys up to age 7 or 8 in the boys clothing section. If Bentalls still exists I bet they don't any more. At the sam time Carnaby Street sold dresses and skirts for men. And men wore skirts and Kaftans. Do they now? Back then I certainly believed James Laver, head of fashion at the V & A when he professied that men would be wearing skirts as a matter of course by the year 2000. I won't be around by the year 2100 but I bet men will still be stuck in pants. Sadly.

[Barleymower]

In the mid 1960s Bentalls Department store in Kingston sold a few dresses for boys up to age 7 or 8 in the boys clothing section. If Bentalls still exists I bet they don't any more. At the sam time Carnaby Street sold dresses and skirts for men. And men wore skirts and Kaftans. Do they now? Back then I certainly believed James Laver, head of fashion at the V & A when he professied that men would be wearing skirts as a matter of course by the year 2000. I won't be around by the year 2100 but I bet men will still be stuck in pants. Sadly.

Damon unfortunately humans seem to need to be told to do something or they won't do it. Until someone tells men it's ok to wear skirts and dresses they won't do it.
But if enough men do it and remain men I dont see why it can't happen.

[Faldaguy]

Back then I certainly believed James Laver, head of fashion at the V & A when he professied that men would be wearing skirts as a matter of course by the year 2000. I won't be around by the year 2100 but I bet men will still be stuck in pants. Sadly.

Damon unfortunately humans seem to need to be told to do something or they won't do it. Until someone tells men it's ok to wear skirts and dresses they won't do it.
But if enough men do it and remain men I dont see why it can't happen.

BM: It is more than being told they can -- that is pretty much known; and certainly to any guy who is truly interested, he has found out that it is 'ok' for men to wear skirts --- so it is not a matter of if they have been "told" they can -- that is useless knowledge as long as men haven't got the balls to do what they please. Sorry for the blunt language, but it a person's own reticence and fear that must be overcome, not a mere permission or instruction. [Granted, we probably have fewer people who think for themselves than wait to be told what to do, and then do so without critical assessment, but real motivation has to come from within, not merely an order.]

[Kay]

Sorry for the blunt language, but it a person's own reticence and fear that must be overcome, not a mere permission or instruction.

It took me more than 40 years to realize as long as it doesn't harm or offend, I do not need to care what others think, especially with what I wear.

That said, I think many men find skirts to be feminine and wouldn't want to wear them. I would respect their choice as much as I'd like them to respect mine.

PS: sometimes when I'm asked why am I wearing a skirt and not pants, I'd reply tongue-in-cheek, "I'm sure Jesus didn't wear pants so why should I?" Then I'd point out that throughout history men had always worn skirts so why should we do any different.

PSS: my wife brought our whole family to watch the movie David. None of the men in the animation wore pants. Young David was wearing a knee length skirt.

[Barleymower]

BM: It is more than being told they can -- that is pretty much known; and certainly to any guy who is truly interested, he has found out that it is 'ok' for men to wear skirts --- so it is not a matter of if they have been "told" they can -- that is useless knowledge as long as men haven't got the balls to do what they please. Sorry for the blunt language, but it a person's own reticence and fear that must be overcome, not a mere permission or instruction. [Granted, we probably have fewer people who think for themselves than wait to be told what to do, and then do so without critical assessment, but real motivation has to come from within, not merely an order.]

FG: you are right, no denying it.
What does being 'told' mean? I think if they said on the news that experts recommend it. Some men would go for it but that would be followed by a backlash of 'its girly' and they would stop.
If the guys were told that long hair and skirts lead to more sex than you could shake a stick at then men would be fighting over the curling tongs. If the backlash (its girly) was the same, they would not care. Men's primary driver is getting laid.

My view is that sex is the driver and men dont realise that women are largely in favour or don't mind.

Any gradual integration is hampered by two things:
Macho men
Masculinity is fragile and the more macho a man becomes the more fragile his view of what makes a man becomes.
Radical feminists
Nearly all women are feminists and thats not a bad thing. The problem for what it is worth is the radical feminists. They, by there nature really dont like men for all the wrongs men have done. The rad fems see any intrusion by men into female space (territory) as unacceptable, that includes skirts. The rad fem lobby is powerful and not to be dismised.

Everyone else is caught in a Truman Show like existance.

[Damon]

Barleymower wrote

Masculinity is fragile and the more macho a man becomes the more fragile his view of what makes a man becomes.

Unhappily right. All boys between the ages of about 7 and late teens harbor the secret fear that they are not man enough. It just takes a stupid Coach to shout "Don't throw like a girl" and the boy is devastated.

Skirts are identified as being feminine, dressing like a girl. I am 84 and still hardly ever have the courage to wear a skirt in public. On the other hand I am completely happy to wear any garment that I identify as being a kilt, anywhere and any time. I am sure that's because I quite often wore a kilt when I was a boy. And certainly seeing soldiers wear them helped.

I think it would be great if many more boys wore kilts or Utilikilts. It would forever leave an opening for them to wear at least some sort of skirt. Unfortunately the current emphasis is on being Trans and schools push it to the extent that a boy who declares he is a girl is allowed, even encouraged to wear girly dresses. I think that just cements the idea that skirts and dresses are for girls and a boy who wears one must be Trans.

I think the best chance of making progress would be for the mainstream clothing industry, parents and schools to push kilt like skirts with pockets for men and boys. Something which is definitely not for women and girls and is never modelled by them, only by boys and men.

I know this will upset those who campaign for complete fashion freedom and sneer at kilts as being in the man box. Kilts are a small gap in the wall. When a good number of men and boys regularly wear them, then we could start to push the envelope a bit

I believe the sight of a man or a boy confidently wearing a kilt may encourage a few others. While a man wearing a dress is presumed to be transgender or a transvestite.

[Grok]

I think it would be great if many more boys wore kilts or Utilikilts. It would forever leave an opening for them to wear at least some sort of skirt.

I know this will upset those who campaign for complete fashion freedom and sneer at kilts as being in the man box. Kilts are a small gap in the wall. When a good number of men and boys regularly wear them, then we could start to push the envelope a bit

Good points regarding kilting.

We should remember that members are the vanguard, but the vast majority of men are not.

I can imagine some members being impatient with others. But please support them when they at least try to wear something different, even if they aren't as bold as you.