Mississipi School Discriminate Transgender Girl

[Mouse]

What is amiss is, WHY is it only daughters
Shouldn't sons be taught how their bodies work too

You are totally correct.

However a boy tends to workout many of the nuts and bolts of his equipment as it is there to see. Where as, a girl's equipment is mainly internal and hidden. In addition, in many cultures/religions she is taught and shamed about what she has and in really messed up places FGM is performed on her without her consent.

[moonshadow]

Well, I guess they could always move to a more progressive area. Just bring about 1.5 million dollars for a starter home, and be ready to be taxed to death.

Or they could stay in a more red area and deal with crap like this from time to time...

Red = Mob rule over your own personal body
Blue = Mob rule over your property (if you're even lucky enough to own anything)

Such is the dilemma of the non-conformist.

Is there anywhere where one can just live free without having to empty your wallet just to make ends meet? It seems "freedom" in America really comes down to where you live and what part of your life you're willing to have controlled.

[Stu]

I think this is being approached in the wrong way.

If a student is biologically and physiologically male, that is a simple reality. Until transitioning is complete (hormones, surgery, the legal aspects etc), she can request, but can't demand, others recognise her as female.

However...

The real issue is that institutions should not be dictating what garments are suitable for males and which are suitable for females. If a student wants to wear a prom dress and heels, then he or she should be entirely free to do so, regardless of sex or gender.

[Barleymower]

I think this is being approached in the wrong way.

If a student is biologically and physiologically male, that is a simple reality. Until transitioning is complete (hormones, surgery, the legal aspects etc), she can request, but can't demand, others recognise her as female.

However...

The real issue is that institutions should not be dictating what garments are suitable for males and which are suitable for females. If a student wants to wear a prom dress and heels, then he or she should be entirely free to do so, regardless of sex or gender.

I have not always been in agreement with you Stu but this time you are absolutely correct. It is really nobody's business how a person chooses to dress. There is a situation now that girls can wear boys uniform but not vice versa. That is blatant discrimination.

[STEVIE]

I am speaking for the seven or so year old me here, and maybe it is more representative than you may think.
Yes, I should have been able to demand that I was addressed and treated as a girl.
The sad bloody fact is that I was too scared to ask nicely and suffered the consequences.
Where I am now is irrelevant, things could have turned out very differently.
That abject dread of being seen as different, not just trans, means many kids, especially boys just don't reach adulthood.
In this case the discrimination is blatant and clearly wrong, but the other kind is worse and equally destructive.
Grown ups don't always know what's best for kids because they just don't want to.
Steve.

[Mouse]

I am speaking for the seven or so year old me here, and maybe it is more representative than you may think.
Yes, I should have been able to demand that I was addressed and treated as a girl.
The sad bloody fact is that I was too scared to ask nicely and suffered the consequences.
Steve.

The time we grew up in (1960/70) there was no information you could get unless you asked either your parents, teachers, friends or went searching in the local library in the non fiction medical section.... All sources had consequences..... Unless you lived in those times you don't know how isolating and alone with your own thoughts and desires you were as a kid or young person. Your brain told you that you were the only one in the entire world with your shameful ideas....yes, there was religious info being poured into the mix which didn't help. The internet has faults, but it does allow a person to find/see others in the world with similar thoughts and desires.

[rode_kater]

The internet has faults, but it does allow a person to find/see others in the world with similar thoughts and desires.

Now of course you get the other extreme: children asking these questions on the internet and getting bad answers. For stuff like this it's better if the school gets in early with accurate information, otherwise the kids will start repeating stupid stuff. Just like in the past when people learned the "facts of life" from friends, largely based on hearsay.

I think the children these days quickly learn which sites a more trustworthy, but it's still a problem.

[STEVIE]

All sources had consequences.

Indeed they did Mouse, and well we knew at the most fundamental and instinctive levels.
Effective, don't share, tell or even ask, and trust no one.
Looking back, I didn't actually give a rat's ass about discrimination against "boykind", in my world I was a majority of one.

I think the children these days quickly learn which sites a more trustworthy, but it's still a problem.

The real problem is that adults cannot seem to accept that kids know what's best for a kid.
They seem to polarise issues between outright denial and extreme unfounded conclusion.

Sure nothing irreversible should happen to a child unless there is ample and proper justification, but within that their right to an appropriate level of self determination must be protected and respected.

Steve.

[Barleymower]

The real problem is that adults cannot seem to accept that kids know what's best for a kid.
They seem to polarise issues between outright denial and extreme unfounded conclusion.

Stevie I think that powerful feminist groups are making their feelings known with the government of the day. Essentially they want everything they feel has been denied them and are not prepared to give anything in return.
How does this manifest itself? A lot of attention is paid to LGBT in regards to women's groups but little or nothing is given to men. The government is happy to side with the larger group and doesn't really care about the smaller minority group. The net result is feminist ideals filter down into policy and school rules. Boys will not even be encouraged to wear a skirt - if they feel like it.
The only ally boys have is men like Mouse and he can't stick his neck out too far if he wants to continue doing good.
Stevie/Mouse, how about being Governors in Secondary Schools? Isnt that where the help is needed more?

[STEVIE]

Stevie/Mouse, how about being Governors in Secondary Schools? Isnt that where the help is needed more?

No school governors in Scotland BM and I wouldn't go for it anyway.
My reaction here was largely based on the comments about a kid making "demands".
"Seeking permission" means there is the right of refusal and therefore potential discrimination.
On the basis that boys should have the right to wear skirts, then why should a different name or pronoun be excluded?
Before anyone jumps in, all uptight and indignant, this is wholly based my own experience and not transgender jingoism.
I came through that mill battered and bruised, but still a man in a skirt.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

No school governors in Scotland BM and I wouldn't go for it anyway.

They exists here and it's a big ask. I was a school parent governor myself.
I stopped because the chair of governors where I was had a iron grip on the school. It was a lot of effort for no reward.

My reaction here was largely based on the comments about a kid making "demands".
"Seeking permission" means there is the right of refusal and therefore potential discrimination.

Kids and adults only have rights when they are given rights. Those rights can be swiftly taken away. So they were not really rights in the first place

On the basis that boys should have the right to wear skirts, then why should a different name or pronoun be excluded?

School policy's now often give children the option to wear either uniform. Until boys do it and it's laughed at, or stopped. The policy is aimed at girls. Is it only me that sees the feminist movement at work here?

Before anyone jumps in, all uptight and indignant, this is wholly based my own experience and not transgender jingoism.
I came through that mill battered and bruised, but still a man in a skirt.
Steve.

From one battered person to another. Ain't life a b...

[Stu]

On the basis that boys should have the right to wear skirts, then why should a different name or pronoun ...

Names are chosen by parents. If parents are happy for Jonathan to switch to Janet or vice versa, then that's fine - they can change the name they use at school.

Pronouns are different. Nobody has pronouns. They are properties of the grammar of the language being spoken and selected by the speaker.

[rode_kater]

Names are chosen by parents.

You are given a name by your parents, that's why it's called a given name. But in the end you get to choose the name you want to be known by, just like we all choose names for this forum. The idea that you have to ask permission to be referred to by a different name is... bizarre.

If parents are happy for Jonathan to switch to Janet or vice versa, then that's fine - they can change the name they use at school.

Honestly, I don't see why the parents need to be involved. At best you can explain to them the potential consequences, and convince them not to. But a name is a personal thing and something you get to choose.

On a related note, in the Netherlands you have the concept of "roepnaam": the name you are called by. I guess you could call it a nickname, but it's more than that. It doesn't appear on any official documents and you can literally choose whatever you like. Systems will generally ask for your initials as per passport, "roepnaam" and family name. For example in English where people are called Elizabeth but everyone calls them Liz.

So if we frame it as: Jonathan would like to be known using the nickname Janet, does that feel better?

[Stu]

Honestly, I don't see why the parents need to be involved. At best you can explain to them the potential consequences, and convince them not to. But a name is a personal thing and something you get to choose.

When it comes to children, their official name should be chosen or approved by their parents.

Imagine if a child decided to call himself "Hitler" or "Dracula".

On a related note, in the Netherlands you have the concept of "roepnaam": the name you are called by. I guess you could call it a nickname, but it's more than that. It doesn't appear on any official documents and you can literally choose whatever you like. Systems will generally ask for your initials as per passport, "roepnaam" and family name. For example in English where people are called Elizabeth but everyone calls them Liz.

So if we frame it as: Jonathan would like to be known using the nickname Janet, does that feel better?

I was referring to official names. I have had lots of nicknames in my life, including at school where I was known as "Cyanide". One girl in the year above me was nicknamed "Tommy" because her last name was "Thompson". That's fine - but teachers would normally use the child's proper name.

On a side note - cross-sex names was mentioned in one of the UK daily newspapers last week. I seem to recall it was about a mother who had called her daughter "Garri" after her father (Gary) and she had received some criticism. I'm not sure that's a good idea as the child has to live with that unless and until they ever change their name. If you want to include an opposite sex name, make it a middle name, as a few people have been done in the past. That way, they can choose to use it or to ignore it for most purposes or, as in one case I knew, hyphenate it as part of their last name - e.g. Thomas Charlotte-Smith.

[STEVIE]

When it comes to children, their official name should be chosen or approved by their parents.
Imagine if a child decided to call himself "Hitler" or "Dracula".

I have known of names officially chosen and given the parental stamp of approval which are worse than that Stu.
EG Moon Unit, Exa Dark Sderael, Cyanide, Marijuana, Spicy ,Tu Morrow Etc Etc, need I go on?
As for your two, I'd bet they have also been chosen by parents who really have their kids' best interests at heart.
I'd lay odds that there is basis in reality for the lyrics of "Boy Named Sue", and the wrestler known as Big Daddy's real name was Shirley Crabtree.
Ye Gods, some of this is tantamount to psychological abuse by proxy, possibly equivalent to sending your son to school in a dress in the full and certain knowledge that he will get the crap beaten out of him.
Not convinced at all.
Steve.
Try this one "Stu Potts", that's nasty?