news.com.au: Wet Lettuce men are hotter then alpha males

[ScotL]

This!
Even knowing that there are other males who want to wear skirts that aren't trans and just enjoy wearing whatever, even in their own residences, is a huge weight off the shoulders (not that there is anything wrong with being trans) and takes away the feeling of what is wrong with me.

Crazy right? When you find yourself drawn to something but societal norms say you shouldn’t, you feel like there has to be something wrong with you. When in actuality for men wearing skirts for comfort/fashion, there’s just something wrong with societal norms.

[jamie001]

This!
Even knowing that there are other males who want to wear skirts that aren't trans and just enjoy wearing whatever, even in their own residences, is a huge weight off the shoulders (not that there is anything wrong with being trans) and takes away the feeling of what is wrong with me.

Crazy right? When you find yourself drawn to something but societal norms say you shouldn’t, you feel like there has to be something wrong with you. When in actuality for men wearing skirts for comfort/fashion, there’s just something wrong with societal norms.

In my early days of liking feminine fashion, I discussed the situation with two Ph.D psychologists. Both (one male and one female) told me that there is nothing wrong with dressing in clothing that is marketed to women. It is society that has the problem, not me! It is really that simple.

[JeffB1959]

ScottL you can wear a skirt with the same lack of concern depending on where you are located in the USA. If you are in the Deep South, you may want to rethink wearing the skirt because you will most likely get a beat-down from Bubba and his tobacco chewing, knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, redneck buddies. That is the problem

Wish that were true. But it ain’t. I wore a skirt in Barcelona when I was darn sure no one would ever know me then or in the future ir remember and I was concerned.

I think it’s myopic though to think only the Deep South of the US has “tobacco chewing, knuckle dragging, mouth breathing” people who are intolerant. They’re everywhere.

The concern over wearing a skirt stems from the fact I grew up with skirts being for women/girls. And most people if asked to choose who wears skirts would answer females.

I’m sure my concern will further decrease because it already has. I wrote of my experience flying for the first time and my face was beet red. Under a mask but I remember the abject terror I felt. That’s better now with repeated experiences but it’s still there.

ScottL,

The problem with having a beet red face and exhibiting a state of terror is that people will react badly to you regardless of what you are wearing. You will be a magnet for bad feelings and people wondering what you are up to. The key is to own what you are wearing! Do not act embarrassed or fearful and just go about you life. That is the fear that skirt wearers and freestyle fashion wearing guys (or Wet Lettuce Men ) need to get over! A good example of a person that lives the lifestyle is JeffB1959. Jeff just owns it and doesn't GAF about masculine or feminine as should everyone here on the cafe.

Well, I’m extremely fortunate to live in an area of the country where what I wear is hardly a problem, if anything, I’m occasionally complimented on my attire, I wear the clothes I like and fit my personality. Now, if I lived in the Deep South, I’m not entirely sure I could express myself in the way I enjoy. As for “wet lettuce”, I prefer mine nice and crisp, makes salads all the more enjoyable. Yum!

[moonshadow]

What a strange article.

What a strange phrase, "wet lettuce man". Who comes up with this stuff??

I mean, what was wrong with "sissy", or "Nancy boy", or the countless other pejoratives for effeminate males?

I like this line:

"When a man introduced me to the wet lettuce phrase he described it as “men who don’t know how to be men anymore”."

So.... if these men don't know how to be "men" anymore, then what are they? For the love of all things holy, we know they sure as hell ain't WOMEN! So... did these guys slip into some in between "twilight zone"? Neither man nor woman?

I mean, it's like these people say that we aren't men, but they adamantly claim we aren't women either... well, it's one or the other isn't it??? I mean, "there are ONLY TWO GENDERS!!!!!" That's what they say, and if you say otherwise, apparently you're "awake" or some such nonsense.

Oh... and you also run the risk of getting shot.

And I have no idea what being conscious has to do with the gender spectrum, but apparently you're supposed to remain unconscious your whole life.

But if you think wet lettuce is bad... try it after it's been microwaved.

[rivegauche]

Perceptions vary. A lady who runs an up-market local boutique and knows I am male looked me up and down in one of my dress-based outfits - I was completely presenting as a woman - and said "You've got balls going out dressed like that".

[JeffB1959]

But if you think wet lettuce is bad... try it after it's been microwaved.

What? Who in the hell microwaves lettuce?

[ScotL]

I mean, it's like these people say that we aren't men, but they adamantly claim we aren't women either... well, it's one or the other isn't it??? I mean, "there are ONLY TWO GENDERS!!!!!" That's what they say, and if you say otherwise, apparently you're "awake" or some such nonsense.

Way to point out the obvious duplicity in their thoughts. Same people who swear they want less government and don’t want the government telling them what they can and cannot do but are somehow ok with government telling people who they can and cannot marry.

[ScotL]

Perceptions vary. A lady who runs an up-market local boutique and knows I am male looked me up and down in one of my dress-based outfits - I was completely presenting as a woman - and said "You've got balls going out dressed like that".

I’m curious as to what she meant. She commenting more on the outfit like she would to a fellow woman wearing something risqué or did she mean it as a guy wearing a dress with the obvious implication of the “guys don’t wear dresses.”

[Stu]

I mean, it's like these people say that we aren't men, but they adamantly claim we aren't women either... well, it's one or the other isn't it??? I mean, "there are ONLY TWO GENDERS!!!!!" That's what they say, and if you say otherwise, apparently you're "awake" or some such nonsense.

There are only two biological sexes and even most intersex people still fall reasonably clearly into one or the other. The minuscule proportion of people who have a genetic anomaly where they can genuinely claim their physical sex is biologically indeterminate can't be considered a separate gender. They are simply people with an anomaly.

In terms of gender, we have to decide what exactly we mean by that. If we are talking about gender in the linguistic sense, then there are three in English - masculine, feminine and neuter. If we are talking about gender in the sense of human disposition, then that is a social construct which is sometimes linked to biological sex and sometimes not - and it exists along a continuum between hyper-masculinity and hyper-femininity. I do not accept the notion of "non-binary" as it relates only to feelings and I don't accept the premise that identity is exclusively predicated on how we feel.

The term "woke" has changed its meaning by usage and is now a pejorative expression. I have not seen a definition which encompasses its current meaning, so I offer my own. It is the word that denotes what some political philosophers call “neo-progressivism”. It’s the obsession with identity and group membership above all and the derision of rewarding merit. It is collectivist and eschews individualism. It has other characteristics including a grotesque intolerance of anything which does not conform to its dogma, especially in relation to the expression of opinions, and its view that feelings trump fact. Wokism is a re-imagining of the Marxist depiction of the struggle of the proletariat against the bourgeoisie, with the former represented by what are regarded as oppressed groups (sexual, racial etc) and the latter typified by the straight white male.

[rivegauche]

Perceptions vary. A lady who runs an up-market local boutique and knows I am male looked me up and down in one of my dress-based outfits - I was completely presenting as a woman - and said "You've got balls going out dressed like that".

I’m curious as to what she meant. She commenting more on the outfit like she would to a fellow woman wearing something risqué or did she mean it as a guy wearing a dress with the obvious implication of the “guys don’t wear dresses.”

She simply meant that it took real courage for a man to go out in public dressed as a woman, and she seemed to interpret having such courage as evidence of real masculinity. I now this lady reasonably well so I don't think I am misinterpreting her. I also told this story to a woman friend and she agreed that it took real guts to go out like this. Of course it is taking the evidence too far to suggest that ma dressed as woman in public is going to be universally perceived as a brave dude. But some people think things through before opening their mouth - I wish there were more of them.

[pelmut]

I mean, it's like these people say that we aren't men, but they adamantly claim we aren't women either... well, it's one or the other isn't it??? I mean, "there are ONLY TWO GENDERS!!!!!" That's what they say, and if you say otherwise, apparently you're "awake" or some such nonsense.

There are only two biological sexes and even most intersex people still fall reasonably clearly into one or the other.

There are many different combinations of chromosomes; for convenience of breeding, they are artificially classified into Male and Female.  Dividing intersex people into 'clearly' one or the other is absolute nonsense, it's like trying to classify colours into 'Black' or 'White'.

[ScotL]

She simply meant that it took real courage for a man to go out in public dressed as a woman, and she seemed to interpret having such courage as evidence of real masculinity.

Exactly. Well done

[jamie001]

What a strange article.

What a strange phrase, "wet lettuce man". Who comes up with this stuff??

I mean, what was wrong with "sissy", or "Nancy boy", or the countless other pejoratives for effeminate males?

I like this line:

"When a man introduced me to the wet lettuce phrase he described it as “men who don’t know how to be men anymore”."

So.... if these men don't know how to be "men" anymore, then what are they? For the love of all things holy, we know they sure as hell ain't WOMEN! So... did these guys slip into some in between "twilight zone"? Neither man nor woman?

I mean, it's like these people say that we aren't men, but they adamantly claim we aren't women either... well, it's one or the other isn't it??? I mean, "there are ONLY TWO GENDERS!!!!!" That's what they say, and if you say otherwise, apparently you're "awake" or some such nonsense.

Oh... and you also run the risk of getting shot.

And I have no idea what being conscious has to do with the gender spectrum, but apparently you're supposed to remain unconscious your whole life.

But if you think wet lettuce is bad... try it after it's been microwaved.

Hi Moon,

You are confusing two terms in the same way that the majority of society does.

Biological Sex: there are two biological sexes. Male and female.

Gender: gender is a spectrum that ranges from male to female. Gender does not always match biological sex.

We need to stop using the term gender in reference to a person’s biological sex.

In addition, I don’t mind the terms sissy and Nancy Boi and even prefer them to wet lettuce men.

[Stu]

There are many different combinations of chromosomes; for convenience of breeding, they are artificially classified into Male and Female.  Dividing intersex people into 'clearly' one or the other is absolute nonsense, it's like trying to classify colours into 'Black' or 'White'.

Most intersex people are either male or female. A geneticist explained it to me as (subject to a very tiny number of exceptions) that being contingent upon the presence of a Y chromosome, so that would incorporate such as Kleinfelter's (XXY males). Basically, if you have one or more Y chromosomes, you are male; if you don't, then you are biologically female. The exceptions are phenomenally rare individuals including those with Swyer Syndrome (XY females who are male at conception, but a fault occurs and the infant has female reproductive organs, but no actual ability to conceive); De La Chappelle Syndrome (similar to Swyer, but XX males) and certain types of true hermaphrodism and mosaics. Let's be clear: these are all genetic disorders; they make it impossible for the individual to reproduce; and they are vanishingly rare. They are not biological sexes nor are they genders and most of the minuscule number of people who have them present firmly as either male or female.

What is "absolute nonsense" is using the presence of these to justify confecting an imaginary gender identity called "nonbinary", which comprises people who choose the label because that's how they "feel".

[Stu]

In addition, I don’t mind the terms sissy and Nancy Boi and even prefer them to wet lettuce men.

While I consider myself a more masculine type of male, I wouldn't call you or anyone else these terms. They are degrading.

I would just regard you as a male who exhibits fewer masculine traits than the average man - and that's fine. An average is just that. People will always fall on either side of it. You be you.