skirtcafe.org

crfriend wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:36 am That's masterful, and touches on all the high points that I went through so many years ago -- and now have to again in an attempt to convince my current lady-friend that I'm in all "sexual" aspects perfectly normal, and she seems resistant to the notion although may be coming 'round as she learns more about me.

Sadly, the "supportive" partner appears to be quite atypical for men in skirts.
Attracting, feminine attention is easy but turning the fascination beyond the platonic, a challenge of epic proportions.
Feeling damnably bitter right now!
Steve.

STEVIE wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 10:04 amSadly, the "supportive" partner appears to be quite atypical for men in skirts.

Yes, sadly that does seem to be the case.

Attracting, feminine attention is easy but turning the fascination beyond the platonic, a challenge of epic proportions.
Feeling damnably bitter right now!

It's especially painful after having a very supportive partner in the past and now trying to sway someone else. Perhaps it can't be done. I do not know.

STEVIE wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 10:04 am

crfriend wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:36 am That's masterful, and touches on all the high points that I went through so many years ago -- and now have to again in an attempt to convince my current lady-friend that I'm in all "sexual" aspects perfectly normal, and she seems resistant to the notion although may be coming 'round as she learns more about me.

Sadly, the "supportive" partner appears to be quite atypical for men in skirts.
Attracting, feminine attention is easy but turning the fascination beyond the platonic, a challenge of epic proportions.
Feeling damnably bitter right now!
Steve.

Question is: why?
Why do women not support their partners wearing the same clothes as them?
This is an open question with no bias to anyone or anyone's opinion.

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:28 pm Question is: why?
Why do women not support their partners wearing the same clothes as them?
This is an open question with no bias to anyone or anyone's opinion.

I don't have an experiential basis for my answer, but will give one regardless based on narratives I've read:

Because people conflate clothing with identity, and they think their partner is changing. They don't want to love a woman, they married their partner for how they looked/acted behaved as a man. They think their man is going to become a woman, etc...

Also - I don't know about you, but if I was dating or married to someone, and she started wearing pants all of a sudden (as opposed to always wearing skirts), I would wonder what happened. We cannot deny that wearing a skirt is transgressive. That isn't to say we shouldn't or can't, but you can't expect people to be on board with you 100% from the outset if they don't get it.

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:28 pmQuestion is: why?
Why do women not support their partners wearing the same clothes as them?

Because, as everyone knows, men don't wear skirts? Why not? Because they don't. And thus it stays.

Hi All,
Most women choose to wear trousers simply because they can, nobody looks for any substantial motive and even fewer will openly object.
They have had the freedom of choice for long enough now that for several generations, it has always been so and it poses no question on their femininity.
MIS on the other hand is the new kid on the block and we do have to bear in mind that fashion freedom for women was never an overnight success.
Cold hard fact, woman in trousers, no problem, man in skirt, alarums and excursions!
Partners, families, Joe K Public, have all been tarred with the same brush and we have too!
If we were able to shrug that off, there'd be a hell of a bigger MIS community and much better mental health in the general population.
Steve.

Well since posting the question I have debated the question with my other half in exchange for £58 that she forked out for christmas presents on my behalf today.
She said this:
She was not overly surprised that the Scottish people in Stevie's life have made him 'bitter' as he said in an earlier post. In her opinion the protestant' ness of the Scottish can mean they have a more puritan outlook than others.
She felt in general society has set itself up as women this and men that. Those who attempt to deviate from the narrative will be rejected by society. That's why women are happy for others to break from society's norms BUT when it comes to their own men then their actions reflect on the wife/partner. She said that masculine traits in women are viewed as acceptable but feminine traits in men are only acceptable in gay men. Trans women are women, therefore current definitions mean they are not men.

Unless the women is prepared to take on society's norms (which she might never have questioned/had to question before) then she is left in what she perceives as an uncomfortable situation and is liable to pass the whole situation back to the skirt wearing man and not support him.

She also said look at history when women started wearing trousers, was it the women who had a special women friend? At least that's the perception.

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:11 pmShe also said look at history when women started wearing trousers, was it the women who had a special women friend? At least that's the perception.

Who knows? And, moreover, who cares? The blunt fact is that eventually pants on women became not just commonplace but ubiquitous.

We have to wage our own fight.

STEVIE wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:44 pm Hi All,

MIS on the other hand is the new kid on the block and we do have to bear in mind that fashion freedom for women was never an overnight success.

The shift took about 80 years to complete, from the 1890s to the 1970s.

Grok wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:05 am

STEVIE wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:44 pm Hi All,

MIS on the other hand is the new kid on the block and we do have to bear in mind that fashion freedom for women was never an overnight success.

The shift took about 80 years to complete, from the 1890s to the 1970s.

Actually, it started during W.W. II.
Why then The men went off to war and the women stayed home.
The war effort needed tanks, planes and jeeps. Who was left to build them? Women, that's who.
They had to change into pants at the factories, then before leaving, they changed back into skirts
and dresses. Finally many women had enough and wore the pants home from work. This caused
an uproar with the remaining men, but the men couldn't argue the fact that women were doing
the work of men in the factories. Remember this?


Rosie the Riveter

Then, Kathryn Hepburn made women wearing pants "fashionable".
The rest, as they say, is History

Uncle Al

Uncle Al wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:59 am Then, Kathryn Hepburn made women wearing pants "fashionable".
The rest, as they say, is History

Except it's even longer, Then in the UK, we had plenty female workers wearing trousers during the First World War, Rosie's Mas and Grandmas.
No doubt Ms Hepburn was exceptionally cute but she was not alone and it was really the 50s and 60s when there was real acceptance.
As I said an overnight sensation that took years to gain traction.
Steve

Don’t forget Coco Chanel in the 20s and 30s

Grok wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:41 pm I am trying to imagine one of today's fashion designers coming up with something that could be worn as clothing, rather than a clown outfit.

In terms of skirts for men? There have been reasonable designs, if not a bit, erm, bland. I think the closest we have compared to using bloomers under a skirt was the skirt / shorts made by Etalon:

viewtopic.php?p=243013

You could argue ClHu's skirt with shorts is also close, but that's more like a skort since the shorts are built in.

I've come around a bit to skirt over pants a little bit - in that I think the look can be a safe way to wear a skirt for a guy who's a bit unsure. It's unnecessary, but is distinct enough it's not just straight up wearing a skirt like a woman does. I think if it became popular enough, more adventurous guys would skip the pants. It's just... usually you see the look on skinny punks (ie, plaid skirt over black ripped jeans), so there's a certain aesthetic it tends to present as.

crfriend wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:49 am

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:11 pmShe also said look at history when women started wearing trousers, was it the women who had a special women friend? At least that's the perception.

Who knows? And, moreover, who cares? The blunt fact is that eventually pants on women became not just commonplace but ubiquitous.

We have to wage our own fight.

We do have to fight our own fight.
Information is everything. Fully examine what has gone before decide wether any of it applies ro you and your struggle. It makes decision making easier and leads to better outcomes.
Who cares? I care. I want this to happen and its not going to happen by just doing what suits me. Maybe I love tutu's (I dont) but running around in one isn't going to forward the cause for sure. I don't want to wear a kilt all the time they are boring. I want wear what I want and look good in it. It's not easy,

Just like skirts for men, there are historic and cultural examples of trousers for women. That said, I would agree that the modern push for women in pants took on the order of a century to change. That leads to the obvious questions of:

1. Should we expect the change for men to take more or less time?
2. How far into that transition are we for men in skirts?

There are differences, obviously (were historic analogs used to promote women's pants, in a similar way to men's kilts? Will we ever see a practical push for men's skirts on the scale of wartime factory work for women? Etc.) but I have a feeling the trajectory will be similar.

It may be more generations than years we should be discussing, since attitudes do change during ones lifetime, but not near to the extent that different generations have different attitudes. So maybe the questions should be:

1. How many generations does a change in attitudes take?
2. How many generations into that transition are we with men in skirts?