Suggestions Regarding Transgender Rights

[Caultron]

...The idea of a man dressing as a woman as a means to enter women's restrooms and rape little girls is ludicrous.

It's simply a flimsy excuse for moralists to harass transgender people.

Perhaps this argument is once looked at logically, but there is the question of women's comfort, and there are women who do find the idea of random men in their bathroom uncomfortable - and their perception of when a man becomes a woman may not match the trans* person's perception. Trans*-folk's rights are important, but remember that all rights are important.

To me, if you present yourself well enough as a woman that you'd create a greater stir by walking into a men's room than walking into a women's room, you should probably use the women's room. And vice versa.

And for sure, if you've had sex-reassignment surgery and got your drivers license changed, you should be able to use the washroom that matches your driver's license.

Shower rooms, though, are a different story. I guess you'd need some very convincing surgery to pull that off.

[partlyscot]

Shower rooms, though, are a different story. I guess you'd need some very convincing surgery to pull that off.

If someone has gone through a full transition, you quite often can't tell. This assumes early change, or extensive facial feminization surgery. I am thinking of someone like Kim Petras as an example of an early (I think at the time she was the youngest at 16) On the other side, there is a MtF who frequents my store, you can still tell, but it's getting harder as the hormones, and I think further facial surgery are having an effect. That last one uses the female bathroom, and as far as I know has had no issues with any of the other ladies. She didn't transition until her 50s.

At the root of all this nonsense is mostly ignorance. Some people are woefully ignorant of what is involved in the various kinds of trans folk. This generates confusion, and fear, and then anger. Throw in a dose of misinterpreted religious doctrine (or manipulated dogma) and it can get ugly fast.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

My thanks to all of you who have responded to my query. Tomorrow's the big day.
I plan to give the person I'm meeting with a few websites, including this one, so she can get a flavor of how broad a field transgender includes. And yes, most of us don't think of ourselves as transgendered but the definitions include us anyway. For once we get our cake and the ability to eat it too.
The company's policies are broad enough that they in fact could include men wearing skirts. The key is management interpreting them that way and creating a process for making everyone accepting of whatever changes in presentation that a given individual may want to make. Part of it would be how best to introduce it to the work team - just do it vs. announcement first, agreement on names and pronouns, where appropriate and bathrooms.
The company has already agreed to put single user bathrooms available to all genders on all floors of their major buildings in Portland.
I also feel this is such a nice, caring, supportive group of people in general, that they're a great place to take leadership on these issues, because they're very likely to reduce them to the non-issues that at heart they are. As Moonshadow keeps reminding us, we're just talking about pieces of fabric fer cryin' out loud.
At some point this will require a slide show for management, starting at the top. Are there any of you willing to have your photos used for that purpose?

[Sinned]

Dave, I don't have many photos on this site and they are in the Looks section but you are free to use them if you like, including the purple dress that I have given back to MOH. It may serve as a not to wear item. If you require copies then just let me know. I trust you that they will be used for the purpose that you say.

[pelmut]

The company has already agreed to put single user bathrooms available to all genders on all floors of their major buildings in Portland.

That is a simple, economical and practical way around the problem, they should be held up as an example to other companies.

At some point this will require a slide show for management, starting at the top. Are there any of you willing to have your photos used for that purpose?

You are welcome to use the pictures of 'man skirts' on my dressmaking pages: http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/dressmaki ... tIntro.php and any other pictures I have posted to this forum.

[moonshadow]

Hi Dave,

I posted a reply to this thread the other day, but almost immediately deleted it for two reasons: a) It had a arrogant tone, something I'm trying to quit that and lighten up, and b) it blew the whistle on a few double standards that I'm aware of at... er... you know... (public forum- gotta be careful what I say)

I applaud this company you speak of for taking this seriously. While I don't consider myself transgender in the sense that I'm actually living my life as a full time female, thanks to my later understanding of gender and what it means, I've come to consider myself gender fluid. Still call myself a man (goes by "he"), but no longer having any hangups about gender and simply being free.

This freedom has come at somewhat of a price. It has taxed my morale at work, and with life in general as I constantly struggle with the bigotry I face almost daily. There are big chunks of my story that I haven't shared on this site or elsewhere online for obvious reasons. But suffice it to say, I wish I worked for this company you speak of. Seriously- if they need someone with my skill set let me know.

As I told a few around here, and this is a notion you can share over there on the west cost... "How wonderful a world would be if everyone could simply be free to be who they want to be. Imagine the productivity at work that comes with the increased morale! I'll never understand why companies always seem to stifle people's free spirit and constantly endevor to keep the masses under tight control. I'll never understand how we, here in America can pay so much lip service to the pillars of freedom, and yet be so prejudiced about practically everything."

I've posted little snippets of my story here and there. You're welcome to use them as you see fit, I'll only ask that you keep me anonymous.

Also, although I realize most of my rigs aren't "office appropriate", I have hatched a few that might work. You're welcome to thumb through my flickr "Men's Fashion Freedom" album and use whatever you like. Again, all I ask is to remain anonymous and simply go by "Moon Shadow from Virginia" if anyone ask.

Here are a few that might be considered "office appropriate" IMO: (click the image for larger versions)


Yeah, I don't have many photo's of "dressy" looks. I do have some semi dressy outfits and stuff I can put together, but as a man who can only dress this way when he's off, I generally only wear outfits that I find to be "weekend fun". As you can see, the first two were just my attempts to be dressy in the house (all dressed up and nowhere to go!) The third one seems to be a hit with the folks on flickr, being one of the more popular looks I've pulled off (more faves and compliments)

If nothing else, please offer my sincere thanks and appreciation to those powers that be over there who understand what "Freedom and Justice for ALL" means!

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Again my thanks to all of you for your thoughts and contributions.
My meeting went really well. It helps that the woman I was meeting with is a married lesbian so she's seen a lot and been through a lot.
We came to the conclusion that one of our strongest arguments are going to be just the ones you made Moonshadow that when people are free to be themselves everything works better most especially creativity.
She's organizing a meeting of Employee Resources Groups from several of the major corporations in Portland (there are few homegrown major corporations, but many national firms have large offices here) in October. At first I hedged with well, I'll have to see if I can get the time off from whatever I might be working at. Shortly after I decided, the heck with it! This is important to me so I am just going to let whoever might have hired me by then know I have some personal business to attend to that afternoon and just do it!
I've come to the conclusion that a lot of our societal norms are enforced at the workplace and the majors generally set the standards. So if we can get one or more companies to see the wisdom to letting their men wear skirts to work, it won't take long for the whole dam to wash out and for the whole business to become a non-issue.
Btw, Moon, those outfits you modelled, would fit quite nicely in most offices but unfortunately, as a life insurance company the particular one that I used to temp at doesn't have much in the line of mechanical gear to maintain except your usual HVAC systems, desks, etc. If your skills include building maintenance, the name of the company is the Standard Insurance Co. in Portland, OR. And good luck!
Like I said, I thought either the City or the County passed a statute making LGBT folks a protected class, though I don't seem to be able to find it. Nonetheless, it's on most large companies' radars here, I think they're just trying to think their way through the issues. Like at the 6th grade dance, everyone wants to dance but no one wants to go first.

[JohnH]

A simple solution - only build bathrooms with commodes and stalls. Each person would have their own 'private' area to do his/her 'business'.

Urinals have the advantage of using a heck of a lot less water than the pot. That's important around here since we're in the midst of a drought. Likewise, California.

Just have a walled off section containing urinals.

Sometimes do get odd looks when I use the men's room due to my feminine appearance. Then I say something with my masculine voice and the look goes away. And no, I don't want any facial hair.

I have a simple rule regarding which restroom (loo) to use:

If you have a pole, use the men's restroom.

If you have a hole, use the women's restroom.

Since I have a pole I use the men's restroom regardless of my attire. I have no desire to change my plumbing.

John

[Darryl]

When I first started to work at Humana on a contract basis this year I noticed the usual Men's "room" and Women's "room" out in the public areas of the building. Inside the secure zones I noticed the "room" just had a humanoid stick figure with a skirt outline on the left and a panted leg outline on the right. Female - Male (and everything in between). It's a "one-holer" but I've only had to go to the public facilities once or twice so far this year.

[skirted_in_SF]

Inside the secure zones I noticed the "room" just had a humanoid stick figure with a skirt outline on the left and a panted leg outline on the right.

Of course, in this world they could both represent women.

[Ralph]

The company has already agreed to put single user bathrooms available to all genders on all floors of their major buildings in Portland.

That is a simple, economical and practical way around the problem, they should be held up as an example to other companies.

I agree that this is the best solution in terms of ensuring every participant's privacy and safety, but I'm not sure "economical" and "practical" scale up to large venues. Consider a sports stadium that may have 10,000 or more people of whom a couple hundred might need to relieve themselves simultaneously at any given time. With multi-user bathrooms, you can fit upwards of 10 men standing at urinals and/or 4 to 6 people of whatever flavor in private stalls -- figure on 4 square feet per person* at urinals (a 2x2 spot on the floor) or 16 square feet (4x4) per person in stalls. With a single user bathroom, you're looking at upwards of 80+ square feet per person (assuming roughly an 8x10 area with enough room for a toilet, a diaper changing table, sink, towel dispenser, etc. -- not to mention enough room between all the items for wheelchair access). So you have to either use up a ton more real estate to accomodate those same hundred people simultanously, or reduce the number of bathrooms which will lead to people standing in line for hours.

* This is just doing rough estimates of the layout in my head for the sake of illustrating my argument; actual bathrooms obviously vary quite a bit in dimensions

[Caultron]

Most (if not all) modern sports stadiums have a certain number of "Family" rooms anyone can use. I don't think there's any requirement that you have to bring a little kid with you.

[moonshadow]

While I personally feel that a unisex or "family" restroom is a fair enough compromise, be advised that some in the trans community find that answer discriminatory. Understand that those particular people, and we'll just use a trans-woman for example, believe that she (the trans-woman) should have every right to use the regular woman's room as she considers herself a bona fide woman.

I'm remaining neutral and unaffiliated with my position on this as I don't have a horse in that race personally, but I'm just giving you all a heads up of what you can possibly expect if you make this suggestion. I did once, and I got one hell of a flaming on the board for it. I was called a cis nazi bigot.

Yeah.... they obviously don't know me...

Actually that was about the time I just let this whole issue go and stopped worrying about trans-people if they're going to be like that... let them fight their own battles. I've got enough of my own problems to contend with.

These days, I support them on principle, but I don't actively get involved anymore, or take stands on anything.... tired of wiping egg off my face all the time..

Best of luck to the company... It really is a tough nut.

[Ralph]

I did once, and I got one hell of a flaming on the board for it. I was called a cis nazi bigot.

I know exactly how you feel. I tend to draw the wrath of gender abolitionists, for want of a better term, who are violently opposed to any suggestion that there are perceptible difference between sexes or any binary division at all, right down to the genetic level. It's almost like they think the Y chromosome is a hoax perpetrated by cis nazi bigots to oppress the population and force us into destructive pigeonholes of society's making. I'm paraphrasing considerably, but that's about the gist of these conversations.

Mostly I get amused and perplexed that a guy in a floral sundress can be considered a bigoted opponent of transgender rights. I guess it just goes to show that no matter how inclusive and sympathetic you try to be, you can always find somebody eager to take offense at whatever you say.

[Gusto10]

any regulation is a form of discrimination. It might be cnsidered as positive discrimination, but the last word says it all.