Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

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Darryl
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by Darryl »

:D
Well, if you look at the Fall, before God chases Adam and Eve out of the Garden He makes them some clothing. K'toneth - a "long, shirt-like garment." A dress, or a tunic. Something like the Greek chiton. Hmmm. The Bible also specifies that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He does not change. Hmmmm. :?: Joseph's 'coat of many colors?' Basically the aforementioned k'toneth. Tamar - King David's daughter wore a k'toneth. So. There must be something we're not seeing. :mrgreen:

The thing about cross-dressing was a common practice among the surrounding nations.

A key is the usage of kli gever - a "man's items." Swords. Armor. Kli is kinda-sorta something like "the appurtances of," or "the things of" and gever - can mean just a man, but is mostly used of a "strong man" - a warrior. In another attempt to identify the quintessential “men’s items,” Rabbi Eliezer ben Jacob, quoted in the Talmud (edited c. 800 C.E.), says, “What is the proof that a woman may not go forth with weapons to war?” He then cites our verse, which he reads this way: “A warrior’s gear may not be put on a woman” (B. Naz. 59a). He reads kli gever as the homograph kli gibbor, meaning a “warrior’s gear.”

This same understanding is followed by Midrash Mishlei (Proverbs) which contends that the Biblical character Yael in the Book of Judges kills General Sisera with a tent pin instead of a sword in order to comply with this law. It would have been “unlady-like” for her to use a sword — worse, a violation of the law — because a sword is a man’s tool and so the righteous woman of valor finds an alternate weapon. Note: the sword was lying right there, as the General likely took it off in order to go to sleep.

The current "majority opinion" under Jewish law is that: the scope of this law as interpreted by our sages is limited. It is designed especially to prohibit men and women from misrepresenting themselves as the other gender with the aim of illicit heterosexual activity. The mitzva does not prohibit cross dressing for the festival of Purim. It also would probably not prohibit cross-dressing in a private setting or for theatrical purposes, nor would it prohibit such dress when it would not mislead others as to the gender of the person under the clothes. :bom:

We also have to remember that things like the New King James, the NIV, the KJV and all the rest are NOT the Word of God. They are translations. Learn Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek if you want to read the "real thing." The essentials are there and correct, but some of the fringes still carry the biases of those who translated it into English. If interested, look into the field of Textual Criticism.

Adam Clark's Commentary: "As the word...geber is here used, which properly signifies a strong man of war, it is very probable that armor is here intended; especially as we know that in the worship of Venus, to which that of Astarte or Ashtaroth among the Canaanites bore a striking resemblance, the women were accustomed to appear in armor before her.

Good day! :ugeek:
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r.m.anderson
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by r.m.anderson »

I must have missed a page - oh that's right this documentary was written on papyrus !
The wearing a fig leaf being escorted out of the garden - first generation of the thong !
Followed perhaps by the loin cloth then the wrap skirt or robe - Heck I wasn't there so
what do I know but the way the scripture is written.
The benevolent GOD did not send them out stark naked to endure the slings and pains
of outrageous - well so much of my interpretation of the Clothing Bible 101 !
"YES SKIRTING MATTERS"!
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by Judah14 »

Darryl wrote: A key is the usage of kli gever - a "man's items." Swords. Armor. Kli is kinda-sorta something like "the appurtances of," or "the things of" and gever - can mean just a man, but is mostly used of a "strong man" - a warrior. In another attempt to identify the quintessential “men’s items,” Rabbi Eliezer ben Jacob, quoted in the Talmud (edited c. 800 C.E.), says, “What is the proof that a woman may not go forth with weapons to war?” He then cites our verse, which he reads this way: “A warrior’s gear may not be put on a woman” (B. Naz. 59a). He reads kli gever as the homograph kli gibbor, meaning a “warrior’s gear.”

This same understanding is followed by Midrash Mishlei (Proverbs) which contends that the Biblical character Yael in the Book of Judges kills General Sisera with a tent pin instead of a sword in order to comply with this law. It would have been “unlady-like” for her to use a sword — worse, a violation of the law — because a sword is a man’s tool and so the righteous woman of valor finds an alternate weapon. Note: the sword was lying right there, as the General likely took it off in order to go to sleep.
Certain people are bound to disagree with that :lol:
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by Fred in Skirts »

This is and interesting take on the bible verse. So in this context all of the women in the Israeli army are violating their teachings. Now that can be a real bugger boo!

Fred :kiltdance:
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Judah14
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by Judah14 »

Franinskirts wrote: This is and interesting take on the bible verse. So in this context all of the women in the Israeli army are violating their teachings. Now that can be a real bugger boo!

Fred :kiltdance:
It is 2016 now and by modern laws (including Israel's) there is no problem with women in the military.
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Darryl
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by Darryl »

Darryl wrote:....The current "majority opinion" under Jewish law is that: the scope of this law as interpreted by our sages is limited. It is designed especially to prohibit men and women from misrepresenting themselves as the other gender with the aim of illicit heterosexual activity. The mitzva does not prohibit cross dressing for the festival of Purim. It also would probably not prohibit cross-dressing in a private setting or for theatrical purposes, nor would it prohibit such dress when it would not mislead others as to the gender of the person under the clothes. :bom:
...
Y'all missed the important part. :shock:
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Hello Darryl, thank you for sharing the fruits of your scholarship. I had never heard any of that before and it makes sense.

Hello Dillon, I feel you will be gratified to learn that in the Bible study classes in my church our retired pastor teaches that the Bible provides Truth but not necessarily reality. In other words, as you suggested the lessons we should learn from all those millennia of human activity rather than the Bible providing a dead accurate history. As if we succeed in writing such a thing in our own times about recent events.

And neither of you even got started on all of the variance amongst the earliest Biblical texts that have been found in Middle Eastern and ancient European monasteries. There are so many marginal corrections in the latter it's hard to know what are corrections to transcription errors, translation errors or reinterpretations.

So Moon, if any of your local preachers get on your case about the Bible saying one thing or another ask him, "Now Reverend, which version are you talkin' 'bout?" Even if he says King James, he's out to sea because most of the earliest editions of the Bible were unknown to the scholars who compiled the King James version because no one went looking for them until the Victorian Era.
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Sinned
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by Sinned »

Also the compilers of the KJV were not the experts of today and the book is full of best guesses and translation errors. The New Testament was translated from Greek and he Old Testament from Hebrew and Aramaic. The translators often didn't appreciate the nuances of the original languages and provided the wrong word for the context in the text. So you need to read the Bible with a really good modern reader to provide the context of the written word and any mistranslations. Older readers just aren't good enough.
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by Grok »

The Bible was rooted in the ancient Middle East. The men wore open ended garments. Really, to conform to the Bible, men nowadays should wear togas, tunics.....

It is very likely that Jesus Christ never wore trousers during his entire life.
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Judah14
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by Judah14 »

john62 wrote:When you look at the painting of the Last Supper and the clothes worn by Jesus, the disciples and the women, they all look the same as they did in the Old Testament time. There were no sewing machines or metal needles most people just survived and they wore the basic robe, men and women. Therefore the English translation makes no sense. The Jewish teachers believe the two verses are about deception, that a man should not try to decieve and try to look like a woman and a woman like a man, nothing to do with clothing as such.

John
There could be differences in the designs of the garments for men and women, like in this picture:
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Grok wrote:The Bible was rooted in the ancient Middle East. The men wore open ended garments. Really, to conform to the Bible, men nowadays should wear togas, tunics.....

It is very likely that Jesus Christ never wore trousers during his entire life.
So, would modern Arab dress conform to that? It has mostly remained the same since Bible times.
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by bobmoore »

There sure has been a lot of smoke created with that passage as the source. Most of the Jewish authorities I have read agree that the passage prohibits appearing as the opposite sex. Other places speak plainly against effeminancy. But for sure it is not a condemnation of men in skirts.

Some people think that the Old Testament doesn't apply anymore, but that is not the case. The dietary laws were set aside, and so were the ceremonial laws. See Acts 11 for the dietary laws, and John 19:30 for the clear statement of the finished work of Christ of which the ceremonial laws were but a shadow.

The moral law remains, as do all those not dietary or ceremonial. There is an old saying, "The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed". The Bible is the history of salvation from the beginning till the fulfillment; 66 books telling a continuous story. Yes, many people presume to cherry-pick to "prove" their points, but that is foolishness. They do that---wield scripture like a club---, understanding nothing about the things on which they make confident assertions because they have no understanding of the God who breathed every word of scripture (2 Timothy 3:16).

Unsurprisingly, these things elude the majority of men even though the clear statement of them is right in front of their eyes. See 1 Corinthians 2:14 for the reason why.
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

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Having said all that I should also say that the natural man (see the scripture for what a natural man is) can not do other than what he does. Spiritual truth requires the action of the Holy Spirit to be understood. That truth eludes the natural man, and allows him to appeal to scripture for support while it is that very scripture that refutes him. If a man, any man, approaches scripture as he would a secular book, it will remain opaque to him. Am I saying that most men are blind to the things of the Spirit? Yes, I am, because that is beyond argument exactly what the scripture says. There are many types of literature in the bible, and each type has its own unique interpretational requirements. For example, books presented as history can not be interpreted the same way the poetical or didactic books are. Yet that is often what men, and the secular church, do. They will take an absolute and insist that it is an allegory, or that a clear prohibition is actually not a prohibition. Or they do the opposite and issue prohibitions when none are present. That is known as "legalism", and is rampant in the secular Church.

So when you find someone trying to use Deuteronomy against your skirts you can be sure that person, be it layman or preacher, doesn't know what he is talking about.
"You can lead a liberal to truth, but you can't make it think."
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by skirtpettiman »

moonshadow wrote:So I've got a really nice study bible that I read out of every now and then, and what's cool about it is the bottom half of each page explains every single verse briefly. I saw something interesting on a very popular passage regarding what many of us do here, thought I might pick the brains of some of the biblical experts....

This thread is NOT meant to stir up religious debate, I enjoy studying religion (all of them), nor is it intended to be critical of any faith. I pose this question out of genuine curiosity and with no malice intended. That said, if it turns ugly, and Carl locks the thread or sends it to the trash bin, I will not protest.

On the oh so famous passage of Deuteronomy 22:5 it states:
A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.

Now at the bottom of the page it states as an explanation:

Cross-dressing was forbidden by God in ancient Israel. In the ancient Middle East, dressing in clothing of the opposite sex was magical practice intended to bring harm to people. For example, a transvestite male would predict that the soldiers of another army would be as weak as females....

Fascinating... so as per this explanation it seemed to be more a matter of witchcraft than of any sexual, or perverted nature. As a self proclaimed "witch", naturally you can imagine that I found the explanation quite interesting, and frankly seems to make "my style" par for the course, so to speak! :shock:

Thoughts?
Having done a study of this by searching various Christian forums (I am a committed Christian) I would concur with what you say. Basically the verse means a man should not try to look like a woman (and vice versa) for the purposes of deception and sexual immorality. I wear skirts because they are comfortable, particularly in hot weather, and it is known to be healthy for the male anatomy (I always go 'commando' which is why I always wear skirts no shorter than knee length and always wear loose fitting petticoats under my skirts).
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by SkirtsDad »

לֹא יִהְיֶה כְלִי גֶבֶר עַל אִשָּׁה וְלֹא יִלְבַּשׁ גֶּבֶר שִׂמְלַת אִשָּׁה כִּי תוֹעֲבַת ה' אֱלֹקֶיךָ כָּל עֹשֵׂה אֵלֶּה

Giving as direct a translation as I can, it says: there will not be man tools on a woman and will not put on a man, a woman's robe

I would suggest that "man tools" could reasonably be thought of as 'tools of a trade' and would therefore vary according to occupation, be that mason, farmer, worrior etc. An alternative interpretation that I've come across suggests is may refer to the prayer shawl etc. that only men would have had. Whichever, it is perhaps suggesting that women should not behave like men, regardless of how dressed, i.e. in this paragraph there seems to be little or perhaps no restriction on a woman's vestiture.

Since historically, at the time of the scriptures, men and women both wore robes then perhaps the reading of this should be contextualised within the orthodox culture to which it relates. In my experience, these types of culture tend to segregate men and women outside of the family environment, for instance when socialising. Therefore a possible reading of this is that the reason for not wearing a woman's robe would be simply to stop a man joining a group of women by adopting his opposites attire. Considering that Western Christian/atheist culture does not usually have these boundaries then can any offence be caused by men wearing clothes aimed at women, as mixing of the sexes is permitted? Also, as has been pointed out, in certain festivals it is not uncommon for people to dress as the opposite gender, so again, this would support the argument for freedom of fashion.

Happy guilt free skirting!!! :-)

Here are a couple of sites that may be helpful.

http://www.beki.org/dvartorah/crossdressing/

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/deuteronomy/22-5.htm
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by pelmut »

SkirtsDad wrote:Since historically, at the time of the scriptures, men and women both wore robes...
Were women's robes different from mens' robes?
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